New Alpinism

I just got the book for Christmas and have read through the first 3rd of it as well as scanned the Transition and Base Period sections. Much of the book discusses that the majority of your working out should be zone 1-3 endurance training.
Then I started reading the specifics of the transition and base section. It suggests twice a week strength training, which I'm excited about. I was worried there would be no strength training in the transition time.

So I've decided that for the transition period my main runs would be 30 minutes, moving up to hour runs for base period. As I'm reading about the strength training, their suggested core warmup as well as their suggested general strength routine, it seems that these will be quite lengthy workout sessions if I'm doing every exercise they suggest. So I'm just trying to resolve the fact that twice a week I'm facing 1-1.5 hours of strength training plus my measly 30 minute runs. It just seems like the emphasis on endurance training is quite diminished.

Can anyone chime in on what their plan is? Should I shorten the strength training removing reps or certain exercises to make it manageable in time?
It's not that I don't have time to do this. I'm more just questioning the endurance-to-strength ratio that seems kind of off from what I've been reading about.

Also a side-question: Are they suggesting that our weekly total hours include the full-day climbing?

Thatcher wrote:Much of the book discusses that the majority of your working out should be zone 1-3 endurance training...So I've decided that for the transition period my main runs would be 30 minutes, moving up to hour runs for base period. ..I'm more just questioning the endurance-to-strength ratio that seems kind of off from what I've been reading about.

My interpretation is that in general, your endurance training is largely zone 1--go slow to go fast (at a later point). Consequently, running (presumably in zone 3) is actually a fairly small portion of your endurance work. I don't recall precisely what they prescribe in the transition phase, but rest assured you'll be getting a healthy dose of zone 1, some zone 3, and a couple strength sessions per week by the time you get to base phase.

In this case, the old Yaniro adage that "without power you have nothing to endure" stands as well. A good strength foundation is later converted into higher output endurance than simply endurance training on its own. This has been documented in the running world for a long time. For example, if you max bench 300lbs, you can more easily knock out 10 reps at 100lbs than if you only max bench 150lbs because the required work is much further below your limits. A poor analogy, but illustrates the premise. I wouldn't be concerned about more time moving weights and less time working lungs right now.

The book seems to have some inconsistencies unless you have a lot of time to workout, which may be what the authors expect. The Killer Core routine would take about 30 minutes (10 exercises @ 3 min each) and the recommended full day of climbing could easily use up a week's allotted training time (assuming 7 hr./wk).

It would be good to know how much time is expected for each week per period. It seems that if you did all the training recommended in the base period it would require about 3+ hrs/day, which is a lot for those of us who have desk jobs.

As a side note: my climbing and mountaineering fitness was at its peak when I was working as a production carpenter. Basically, working as hard as I could at an 8 hour pace, 5 days a week (1500-2000 hr/yr).

5of8 wrote:The book seems to have some inconsistencies unless you have a lot of time to workout, which may be what the authors expect. The Killer Core routine would take about 30 minutes (10 exercises @ 3 min each) and the recommended full day of climbing could easily use up a week's allotted training time (assuming 7 hr./wk). It would be good to know how much time is expected for each week per period. It seems that if you did all the training recommended in the base period it would require about 3+ hrs/day, which is a lot for those of us who have desk jobs. As a side note: my climbing and mountaineering fitness was at its peak when I was working as a production carpenter. Basically, working as hard as I could at an 8 hour pace, 5 days a week (1500-2000 hr/yr).

The authors specifically note training loads in hours per week in various disciplines and performance levels. A professional athlete in a low-impact sport (swimming, cycling) might train 25 to 30 hours per week, so 3 hours/day = 21 hours = pro athlete level of training. If you're dedicated, have some scheduling flexibility, and lack the encumbrances of family, this can be achieved with a full-time job, but it takes serious discipline.

As for climbing 7 hours, what most people consider a climbing day is not usually training, and I'd be surprised to learn if that's precisely how the authors mean it. I think the intention is to operate in an "outdoor gym" mentality. The approach is for warming up, routes are turned over quickly, and there's no downtime except as prescribed. Leave the boom boxes and hammocks at home. If I'm training at the crag, my day goes differently than if I'm just going cragging. If I'm out for 7 hours, the first might actually be 7 hours of training (and would be exhausting), while the second might net an hour or two of "training."

A side note on the killer core routine: if you can hold an L-sit for 3 minutes, you probably know everything you need to know.

5of8- It all depends on where your starting point is. I have an 11-12 hour/day desk job and a family but was able to fit it in; it gets hairy toward the end of a full cycle, but it's do-able. Drop me a pm with your email address if you like, and I'll send you a spreadsheet that I used for my training that is generally consistent with the book.

Well after doing the assessment tests, I learned that I am not good at weighted box steps....

Pull-ups, 23 (Good)
Push-ups, 34 (Good)
Dips, 15 (Good)
1000' of steps (33lb pack, boots), 53:45 (Poor)
Sit-ups, 46 (Good)
Box jumps (16"), 43 (Good)

This was quite informative and gives me a very clear idea of where to focus! Though now I want to differentiate whether it is my leg strength or my cardio, or both.

Anyone know how to differentiate what limiting factors are for these tests?

Limiting factor is a combination of your strength and endurance in the particular discipline, right? You can identify the weakness and work on it.

IMHO, if you think the hiking is the limiting factor, if you have an access to a hill that averages about 1000ft of elevation gain in a mile or so, hike that with a 40-60lb pack at speed you can barely sustain. Filling the pack with water in a container and dumping it at the top is a good way to save your knees on the descents. The most gains I got in the beginning, was from intense walks up and down a steep city block. I live in the Bay Area so short steep hills is no problem, the long ones are harder to find. I would pick a city block and hike up it with 6 gallons of water in my pack. Intense pace up, regular walking down. Would repeat that 20 times, than go to a shorter but steeper section and hike that 20 times up and down as quickly as possible. Felt very fit in the end. This was my Denali prep. In the end of this cardio training cycle, I hiked the Mission peak 4 times in a day with 6 gallons in my pack (one way up is 2,200 ft of elevation gain, so 8,800 ft total). On the summit day my friend and I passed every party and kept up with the two guides from Europe. Us four were first to summit out of like 50 people coming up. Not saying it to brag, but to show the effectiveness of the workout. Best way to prepare for climbing peaks is to climb peaks, but if you can, I think hiking up with a weighted pack will help greatly. Good music is very helpful for keeping yourself going. Hope it helps.

Thanks "The3rd."

I guess you're probably right it is combo. Generally, legs are not sore after test so thinking cardio might be the bigger of the two by some margin (tho I wasn't breathing hard either), especially since I never run, and seldom hike outside of the climbing trips I take. But I do engage in regular strength training for my legs.

I know that hills are the best training for hills, and once upon a time, I used to play in them regularly and was probably in better shape for this particular test. I guess this test has shown me where to focus. Time to track down the nearest hills....

5of8 wrote:The book seems to have some inconsistencies unless you have a lot of time to workout, which may be what the authors expect. The Killer Core routine would take about 30 minutes (10 exercises @ 3 min each) and the recommended full day of climbing could easily use up a week's allotted training time (assuming 7 hr./wk). It would be good to know how much time is expected for each week per period. It seems that if you did all the training recommended in the base period it would require about 3+ hrs/day, which is a lot for those of us who have desk jobs. As a side note: my climbing and mountaineering fitness was at its peak when I was working as a production carpenter. Basically, working as hard as I could at an 8 hour pace, 5 days a week (1500-2000 hr/yr).

If I remember, I think they said on climbing days the approach can be used as Z1 training, but to not necessarily count the actual climbing as training. They did use the example of doing laps on a self-belay at the gym with a pack and boots on as a good example of power endurance(?) if you're training for a technical objective.

Aa-lex, if you weren't really sore and didn't have trouble catching your breath, maybe you did nor score well because you didn't push hard enough? May want to take the test again and push yourself to a pace that makes you work hard? Just a thought.

SirTobyThe3rd wrote:Aa-lex, if you weren't really sore and didn't have trouble catching your breath, maybe you did nor score well because you didn't push hard enough? May want to take the test again and push yourself to a pace that makes you work hard? Just a thought.

Yeah I kinda thought the same thing. I found it hard to find a reasonable rhythm on the box - every time I got my speed up, it felt like my boots would skate off the slick wood. Maybe I'm just uncoordinated....

I also wasn't using a HR monitor, so it could just be my perception that it wasn't hard.

How many hours did you guys do during the transition to training period? Was this hard to adhere to or hard to fit all workouts into?

I find that if I halve my average weekly hours from last year, I should start around 2.75hrs/week. However, it seems highly improbable to fit the suggested workouts into this time frame. Let alone the fact that I will have a hard time ONLY working out that much.

Basically, it seems like climbing gym time is what has to get cut down drastically, and endurance training ramped up (to follow this mentality of a large Z1 base).

aa-lex wrote:How many hours did you guys do during the transition to training period? Was this hard to adhere to or hard to fit all workouts into? I find that if I halve my average weekly hours from last year, I should start around 2.75hrs/week. However, it seems highly improbable to fit the suggested workouts into this time frame. Let alone the fact that I will have a hard time ONLY working out that much. Basically, it seems like climbing gym time is what has to get cut down drastically, and endurance training ramped up (to follow this mentality of a large Z1 base).

I've modified my schedule to have those hours of training I calculated to start out as only aerobic training. I'd still do 1.5-3 hours of strength training a week on top of that. I also separate any time I spend cragging or in the bouldering gym separate and call that skills training. Approaches to any climbs count as part of my aerobic training for the week. So when beginning the transition period I think I started with ~3 hours aerobic training, then I usually did 2 hours strength (2 gym sessions) and a little bit of climbing.

I'm just trying to see if I have this right. There is training and there is exercise. Exercise is not necessarily training. In the book, both training and exercise are delineated. The example I used before was the Killer Core as a warm-up: while it is exercise, it does not count as training time. Only the delineated training counts as training time. It is going to be about 3 hrs/day for both exercise and training.

5of8 wrote:I'm just trying to see if I have this right. There is training and there is exercise. Exercise is not necessarily training. In the book, both training and exercise are delineated. The example I used before was the Killer Core as a warm-up: while it is exercise, it does not count as training time. Only the delineated training counts as training time. It is going to be about 3 hrs/day for both exercise and training.

They aren't telling you to do the core routine every day (or technical climbing training, or ...)

Markuso wrote: I've modified my schedule to have those hours of training I calculated to start out as only aerobic training. I'd still do 1.5-3 hours of strength training a week on top of that. I also separate any time I spend cragging or in the bouldering gym separate and call that skills training. Approaches to any climbs count as part of my aerobic training for the week. So when beginning the transition period I think I started with ~3 hours aerobic training, then I usually did 2 hours strength (2 gym sessions) and a little bit of climbing.

Thanks Markuso. Good point. I like that thought process.

Do you slowly increase your aerobic hours each week like the program advises?

aa-lex wrote: Thanks Markuso. Good point. I like that thought process. Do you slowly increase your aerobic hours each week like the program advises?

Either every week or every 2-3 weeks, yes. I usually do 3-4 days of aerobic exercise a week, with usually one being a long day. So in the transition phase where I'm doing ~3 hours of aerobic, my long day may be a 2 hour hike, with 2 days of 30 minute jogs. I'll generally increase my long day much more frequently than the short days, so the next week that would be a 2.5 hour hike, then 3 hours, etc. Eventually I'll increase the 30 minute jogs to 45 minutes, then maybe up to an hour. At some point in the base training phase where my schedule calls for say 10-11 hours of aerobic/week, I might be doing a 6-8 hour hike one day, a one hour jog one day, and then either approaches to climbs or another short jog will make up the rest of the hours.

Great thanks again Markuso!

So I developed a preliminary 23 week plan; 7wks transition, 8wks base max strength, and 8wks base muscular endurance.

I cut my gym climbing hours slightly, and started with half last years average training hours as the aerobic and the strength/weights, focusing on Z1 and weighted hill climbs.

In the transition phase I will do circuit training + hill climbs, in the max strength phase I will do max weight lifting + hill climbs + running, and in the muscular endurance phase I will do ME weights + hill climbs + running.

There will be a progression of training time from ~2.75hrs/week to ~5.5hrs/week. This time DOES NOT include time in the climbing gym for which I will also have some periodization and such. Additionally there will be a weight progression for the hill climbs from 35lbs to 55lbs.

Also, I will probably have a few long days of climbing or hiking prior to the goal.

For reference my goal with this plan is to climb the Evo traverse in a day (tent-to-tent not car-to-car).

Seem like a reasonable plan to people who have done similar training plans? Any other advice/suggestions/etc?

I'm not that familure with the EVO traverse and I'm not sure that I'm understanding the book correctly, but those hours seem a little low to me.

I was doing 45 minutes to an hour of weights twice a week in transition. That wouldn't leave you much time for cardio seeing as your weekend long Z1 will be 1-2 hours. In the base phase I would think that's going to increase to 2-3+, again not leaving much time for cardio.

I'd say your numbers would be accurate if they were just cardio and not include weights or climbing. That's just my $0.02 though.

climbing coastie wrote:I'm not that familure with the EVO traverse and I'm not sure that I'm understanding the book correctly, but those hours seem a little low to me. I was doing 45 minutes to an hour of weights twice a week in transition. That wouldn't leave you much time for cardio seeing as your weekend long Z1 will be 1-2 hours. In the base phase I would think that's going to increase to 2-3+, again not leaving much time for cardio. I'd say your numbers would be accurate if they were just cardio and not include weights or climbing. That's just my $0.02 though.

Hey Climbing Coastie, thanks for the reply!

Those hours are predominantly cardio but do include some weights (climbing at the gym is NOT included in those times). The weights will be roughly 1-1.5hrs per week for the duration of this plan. My strength does not worry me, as I fell into the "good" category for all tests, and I feel like the time I have allotted for this plus my gym climbing time, will maintain my strength.

The cardio is where I sucked for the fitness test, and so most of that time will be for cardio. This will mean starting at roughly 1.75-2hrs per week cardio at the start, progressing to roughly 4-4.5hrs per week cardio at the end, with some one off long days that will be attempting to mimic being on the move for a long time (i.e. - the goal).

It sounds like those are closer to the hours you are thinking are needed for cardio?? Or still a little low??