Ascenders popping off Ropes

David Coley wrote: I'm not sure that would work for aid climbing as one it taking the top ascender off regularly. And for low angle stuff a pair of handled ascenders is I guess quicker.

One can get good at assembling the cam into the shell with practice.

Chris Watkins wrote:The prusik is a bit bulky for me. I like to use a bener with tiblock on the top ascender when traversing. It provides added security with smooth action at min weight.

That seems like a cool Idea, but I try to stay the fuck away from Tiblocs. I think the new one should be good, but if your ascender were to fail and your Tibloc were weighted, it would almost definitely damage your rope. I used a Tibloc clipped to directly to my belay loop as a waist ascender on a short pitch recently, and put a few small tics and tears in the sheath of my relatively new rope. I used to defend the tibloc to death and claim that it did not weigh the sheath and there for could not damage the rope. Although the tibloc does not weigh the sheath when used properly, unless a load is slowly applied to the tibloc while the tibloc is pressed into the rope, it will slip and the teath will rip any strands of the sheath in the way. I understand now that I was totally misusing the device, and that this is to be expected, but the point is, the tibloc (at least the old version) should generally be avoided. Normal ascenders on the other hand, are SPRING LOADED camming devices, meaning that the cams will automatically engage. Because of this it best to just throw an empty locker in the upper whole, so that if an ascender somehow slips, the rope is held in the device so the cam can reengage.
This guy has got it right:
youtube.com/watch?v=2LK20hv…
New Tibloc:
youtube.com/watch?v=ECrbusJ…

Yeah, I only use my Tiblocs in emergencies. I did weight one before it set and it stripped the sheath of my rope pretty badly. The core wasn't exposed, but it just tore into the outer threads and left them frayed.

Never had them pop off the rope but have def had the gate open while passing a piece that's pretty far out. Always wondered about the top biner as its only going to keep the rope in the device when the gate opens but I guess there's always the chance that the rope will catch the teeth and reengage the cam.

Look, you wanker climbers who know next to nothing about using ascenders need to quit listening to Mark Hugedong, who is sounding like a total n00b on this post, and listen to cavers, who have nothing better to do with their time than perfect their jugging systems, and analyze accidents that happen.

Climbers, on the other hand, see jugging as trivial, unimportant, and "easy" and accordingly often devote little time to properly learning and understanding this fundamental wall climbing skill.

Here is what you need to know:

You must ALWAYS be attached to the rope by two or more points of attachment to your sit or chest harness, meaning things like ankle cams and floating cams on ropewalkers don't necessarily count unless they are attached.

If you are jugging a rope while cleaning, and you have to take a jug off the rope to pass a piece, you have to have a backup - Grigri, Micro-Trax or backup knot - or you are going to DIE.

Ascenders can and do pop off diagonal ropes frequently and unpredictably. To suggest that someone didn't properly close the cam is ludicrous. Accordingly, do not trust ascenders on a diagonal rope!

Adding a carabiner both through the top and the bottom of the jug doesn't hurt on diagonal pitches, but it is NO safeguard! You STILL need a backup as described above.

If you are cleaning an aid pitch on jugs, almost certainly it will not be plumb, and almost certainly there will be situations where you have to remove an ascender in order to pass a piece of gear to clean it. Accordingly, make sure you have a backup as described above or yer gonna die.

When I clean aid pitches - which by their nature are traversing and overhanging - two jugs just get in the way. I use a single handled ascender, and a Grigri which I use as the second ascender. The post is here in the aid forum, so have a look if you haven't seen it.

Every now and then, I get to clean one of those rare aid pitches that is actually plumb. In this instance, I might choose to clean the pitch without tying a single backup knot. I will do this if I never have to take one of my two ascenders off the rope. If I did have to remove an ascender, I would quickly tie a backup knot, pass the piece, stick my jug back on, and untie the backup knot. This is because I don't want to jug with the weight of the remaining rope hanging off my harness. Duh.

But if I am cleaning a typical traversing/overhanging aid pitch, I will use a jug plus Grigri, and tie backup knots every now and then, since the weight of rope hanging beneath is a hindrance when using a Grigri, rather than a benefit when using a jug. In this instance, when I get to the top of the pitch, I have the loops of rope ready to stack in the rope bag. And I also don't have to worry about the wind blowing the rope sideways and hanging it up irretrievably on a flake somewhere.

As for jugging a free hanging rope, which is obviously plumb owing to the laws of physics, you are fine with only two ascenders, no backup, and no carabiners through the holes of the ascenders. Even so, some choose to run a Micro-Trax below. I would if I have a spare, but I don't.

Are you guys all aware that not ONE but TWO people have DIED while cleaning the fifth traversing pitch of Tangerine Trip on El Cap? They were jugging and cleaning, and both became completely detached from the rope because one or both jugs popped off, and they hit the deck from five hundred feet up!

So DFU.

P.S. None of you should be using Tiblocs for any reason whatsoever, except absolute emergency. They are total junk, extremely inefficient, and they will cut the sh|t out of your rope!

"Pass the Pitons" Pete Zabrok wrote:Look, you wanker climbers who know next to nothing about using ascenders need to quit listening to Mark Hugedong, who is sounding like a total n00b on this post, and listen to cavers, who have nothing better to do with their time than perfect their jugging systems, and analyze accidents that happen. Climbers, on the other hand, see jugging as trivial, unimportant, and "easy" and accordingly often devote little time to properly learning and understanding this fundamental wall climbing skill. Here is what you need to know: You must ALWAYS be attached to the rope by two or more points of attachment to your sit or chest harness, meaning things like ankle cams and floating cams on ropewalkers don't necessarily count unless they are attached. If you are jugging a rope while cleaning, and you have to take a jug off the rope to pass a piece, you have to have a backup - Grigri, Micro-Trax or backup knot - or you are going to DIE. Ascenders can and do pop off diagonal ropes frequently and unpredictably. To suggest that someone didn't properly close the cam is ludicrous. Accordingly, do not trust ascenders on a diagonal rope! Adding a carabiner both through the top and the bottom of the jug doesn't hurt on diagonal pitches, but it is NO safeguard! You STILL need a backup as described above. If you are cleaning an aid pitch on jugs, almost certainly it will not be plumb, and almost certainly there will be situations where you have to remove an ascender in order to pass a piece of gear to clean it. Accordingly, make sure you have a backup as described above or yer gonna die. When I clean aid pitches - which by their nature are traversing and overhanging - two jugs just get in the way. I use a single handled ascender, and a Grigri which I use as the second ascender. The post is here in the aid forum, so have a look if you haven't seen it. Every now and then, I get to clean one of those rare aid pitches that is actually plumb. In this instance, I might choose to clean the pitch without tying a single backup knot. I will do this if I never have to take one of my two ascenders off the rope. If I did have to remove an ascender, I would quickly tie a backup knot, pass the piece, stick my jug back on, and untie the backup knot. This is because I don't want to jug with the weight of the remaining rope hanging off my harness. Duh. But if I am cleaning a typical traversing/overhanging aid pitch, I will use a jug plus Grigri, and tie backup knots every now and then, since the weight of rope hanging beneath is a hindrance when using a Grigri, rather than a benefit when using a jug. In this instance, when I get to the top of the pitch, I have the loops of rope ready to stack in the rope bag. And I also don't have to worry about the wind blowing the rope sideways and hanging it up irretrievably on a flake somewhere. As for jugging a free hanging rope, which is obviously plumb owing to the laws of physics, you are fine with only two ascenders, no backup, and no carabiners through the holes of the ascenders. Even so, some choose to run a Micro-Trax below. I would if I have a spare, but I don't. Are you guys all aware that not ONE but TWO people have DIED while cleaning the fifth traversing pitch of Tangerine Trip on El Cap? They were jugging and cleaning, and both became completely detached from the rope because one or both jugs popped off, and they hit the deck from five hundred feet up! So DFU. P.S. None of you should be using Tiblocs for any reason whatsoever, except absolute emergency. They are total junk, extremely inefficient, and they will cut the sh|t out of your rope!

+∞

After climbing about 75+ walls around the world I can honestly say that I've never, not once, had a jug come off the rope. It is 100% operator error to have this happen IMO. However, this isn't to trivialize that this can and does happen and people die. I have equated hard aid climbing - heck any aid climbing - to bouldering, but that is a totally different topic. But the point being that quite frequently bouldering, and especially high ball bouldering, requires total focus. Climbing in general - not just walls - require the same; focus, pay attention - anything less can be deadly.

I'm not a fan of Pete's single jug Gri Gri method. Follow Mark's suggestions - they are spot on. I always use a Micro Trax as a back up.

Paul Gagner wrote:After climbing about 75+ walls around the world I can honestly say that I've never, not once, had a jug come off the rope. It is 100% operator error to have this happen IMO. However, this isn't to trivialize that this can and does happen and people die. I have equated hard aid climbing - heck any aid climbing - to bouldering, but that is a totally different topic. But the point being that quite frequently bouldering, and especially high ball bouldering, requires total focus. Climbing in general - not just walls - require the same; focus, pay attention - anything less can be deadly. I'm not a fan of Pete's single jug Gri Gri method. Follow Mark's suggestions - they are spot on. I always use a Micro Trax as a back up.

LOL, toothed ascender for a safety back-up?..... You climbers need, seriously, to catch up with the times! Knots are fool proof (for the most part), and if you want to go mechanical, there are far Better (A.N.S.I. rated) devices for that also. Though, back-up ;) to topic of ascenders popping off......... I also, was once, an "operator error" type, until it happened to me. Long story short, I was demonstrating rope to rope transfer & passing directionals to a co-worker (double ropes; 9mm, old, static work line with 2 old yellow Jumars; 11mm static safety line w/I.S.C. Red). I finished my task and stepped off on to a close by tree branch. Bark peeled off, I fell, and was struck in the head by a Jumar. My buddy watched it all go down (no pun intended). He said it looked like one of my lanyards got caught on the top of the Jumar that popped off. After a few experiments (& beers F.W.I.W.)later, we found that a pull from the top was the only way it could have failed. Design deficiency or operator errors or shit happens?, there's a fine line that zigzags around those 3 functions in no particular order, that will kill you if it F's up. No body is immune to gravity, or unforseen events. Debate this all you want, shit happens. But knots will keep you from a splatter mark. Big wall theory vs. Big wall facts ;)

I run a GriGri on the rope as a backup. IMO, everyone should run some form of locking belay device as a backup. Two jugs (no need for the extra biner), and a GriGri clipped to your belay loop. It only takes two seconds to throw the GriGri on the rope, and I have found it to be useful in other applications than just as a backup. For example, I have jugged a pitch only to find the bag got stuck, so I had to rap down a bit and retrieve it. I have also jugged pitches that ended on ramps and found it was easier to just rope solo across on my GriGri than try to jug low-angle terrain.