Route claiming help!

claiming FAs on pebbles is similar to riding a moped(or banging hamplanets), its fun as hell until your friends see you doing it

Russ Walling wrote:I FA'd everything there V8 and under in 1979. Then declared the area climbed out and choss. Let's move to the Black Planets next....

Black Planets! Thats funny. Those things have surely seen 2-3 FA's per problem.

I hold to the same stance I've always held to: if primacy of ascent is so important to you to publicly belittle somebody for mis-attributing it, then it is *your* responsibility to adequately publicize your claim. Otherwise, you're setting yourself up to have public blow-outs over this.

This has been a major issue with, e.g. the Vedauwoo bouldering scene, to the point where I deliberately name problems that I'm certain have been done in the past, in the hopes that will drive the heretofore silent FAs into an expository rage.

If you don't care enough about the problems to disseminate the information to folks you aren't friends with, you don't have the right to be angry when somebody you don't know gets the information wrong.

Brian Scoggins wrote:I hold to the same stance I've always held to: if primacy of ascent is so important to you to publicly belittle somebody for mis-attributing it, then it is *your* responsibility to adequately publicize your claim. Otherwise, you're setting yourself up to have public blow-outs over this. This has been a major issue with, e.g. the Vedauwoo bouldering scene, to the point where I deliberately name problems that I'm certain have been done in the past, in the hopes that will drive the heretofore silent FAs into an expository rage. If you don't care enough about the problems to disseminate the information to folks you aren't friends with, you don't have the right to be angry when somebody you don't know gets the information wrong.

Excellent.

This thread has been perfect at giving me something other to do than paying attention in class. I would like to say I'm surprised that someone would get so defensive about a Boulder, but I can't. Im not really sure why anyone would get so upset that someone put up some problems on some pebbles that are from the looks of it... in the middle of no where. I didn't seem like Krenik was trying to claim FA but just trying to document the area better so that everyone who uses MP could know about it if they're heading that way. Literary all Jen needed to say was those boulders have been climbed before.. No need for all the hate.

I believe she is upset that someone will be posting the info on a public site. I understand that kind of. I have areas that I don't put up online for people to see and if someone else got online and started claiming FA's in my area it might ruffle my feathers a bit. At that time I would have sent the imposter a pm or added info to the area description. Not type up something that sounds like a boss teaching an employee a lesson.

mustardtiger wrote:I believe she is upset that someone will be posting the info on a public site. I understand that kind of. I have areas that I don't put up online for people to see and if someone else got online and started claiming FA's in my area it might ruffle my feathers a bit. At that time I would have sent the imposter a pm or added info to the area description. Not type up something that sounds like a boss teaching an employee a lesson.

This area has seen climbing activity for several decades and is in the southern california bouldering guidebook.

Mike Brady wrote: This area has seen climbing activity for several decades and is in the southern california bouldering guidebook.

Now, if this is the case, well, the righteous indignation is perhaps more justified. Still, lead with a private message before you call somebody on the carpet. Public shaming does not result in more accurate information, and that's really the goal of correcting somebody, right?

Public shaming is an underused method, I think.

Nobody has any fear these days - people need to think...and then act.

If there is less public shaming, there are less reminders to the masses about how to act.

Give this guy a scarlet FA for Christ sakes.

Everyone knows if you didn't post it on MP it doesn't count as an FA. Now to go bag the FA of Meru Peak. Those guys should have spent more time here and less time editing their movie...

In all seriousness, I see both sides to the issue here, but I think the documentation of a V1 is harder for most of us than climbing a V1, so if you went to the trouble to document it and put it up as an FA go for it. Just be gracious if someone lets you know they were there first. We're talking about rocks, not wives.

That's funny Yesonno, I was thinking the same thing but with an opposite response. I've had so much fun reading this thread that I almost want to go on a road trip just to better appreciate this instant classic MP entertainment.

Brian Scoggins wrote:I hold to the same stance I've always held to: if primacy of ascent is so important to you to publicly belittle somebody for mis-attributing it, then it is *your* responsibility to adequately publicize your claim. Otherwise, you're setting yourself up to have public blow-outs over this. This has been a major issue with, e.g. the Vedauwoo bouldering scene, to the point where I deliberately name problems that I'm certain have been done in the past, in the hopes that will drive the heretofore silent FAs into an expository rage. If you don't care enough about the problems to disseminate the information to folks you aren't friends with, you don't have the right to be angry when somebody you don't know gets the information wrong.

Amen

HarryN wrote:Jennifer's post doesn't deserve the stream of derision in this thread. Do you guys often get mad when a woman acts "uppity"? I'm with her, OP comes off as a douche claiming FA's on his V4's when really he has no idea.

Thank you, HarryN.

ViperScale wrote:You can add area or routes to pretty much anywhere here. I guess there may be some restrictions and generally there are mods for different locations. Remember just because they aren't listed on this site or anywhere else doesn't mean you are the first person to ever climb it. I have cleaned moss off more than one boulder and some of them i am pretty sure have been climbed before just not for a very long time.

ViperScale, I greatly apologize for not addressing your reply. When Matt posted this question, you gave the perfect, ethical answer. He did not take your advice, but thanks for giving it.

To everyone else: I am not, nor was I ever saying that I first climbed this exact boulder as an FA. Geez! And I'm not specifically referring to V1's - I'm speaking of all grades, all types of climbing. Matt will grow to climb harder grades as we all do. Teaching Matt the correct way of doing this will prevent him from continuing an improper practice.

I don't wish to claim any of Matt's "FA's" because they aren't mine to claim! Just because something is undocumented doesn't give anyone the right to just go in and claim it. In guide books, which are always written by locals btw, unknown FA's are left blank. Even here on MP, routes with unknown FA’s are left blank.

In the Bishop Bouldering guide by Wills Young and Mick Ryan, no first ascents are even listed, just the name of the climb and the description. If Matt, or anyone claimed an FA on any of those climbs, because they are not documented (for those of you saying if anything is undocumented, it is fair game to claim), he would be lambasted.

There are problems in WW over V4 to those making fun of the area. I am not concerned with the grade of the problem, just the ethics. That said there are many people looking to get into bouldering and there will always be beginners. The rocks some have called pebbles, insult climbers who have to start somewhere. Just like everyone here has. Why shouldn’t there be a place for those climbs? And why are some of you so egotistic as to look down on climbs that you, at one time, couldn’t do? Beginners should be encouraged, and taught climbing ethics at the same time. Higher-grade climbers know this, and I've a suspicion that the rudest posts are mostly coming from nOObs without much experience.

Someone mentioned that Matt did his research. All he did was post a question here without giving the name of the area. Wagon Wheel is in guidebooks, I named one in my first reply. There is info out there. Just not on this site.

For those of you thinking I am not contributed to the climbing community, or documenting Wagon Wheel, you are welcome to go look on thecrag.com under Christian Schultz (my son wanted to have his name up as we've encouraged him in his endeavors, as we are a family of climbers). You will also find info for Black Planets, and Fossil Falls. Notice that we have left the FA's blank. This is standard for documentation that again, is also done here on MP.

Posting info there had just begun a couple of days before we saw Matt's posts here...because we wanted to also start documenting on MP as well. I didn't swoop in after he posted to whine or complain. I have a lot of pictures and info to share with the MP community. Sorry if I am too late for some of you. Projecting is definitely something that a climber may keep secret - one's hard work shouldn't be stolen. But I have zero intention of keeping Wagon Wheel as a secret. It is already an established area!

I do want to thank those who put in comments that were not antagonizing, even if you did not agree.

And to those who left idiotic remarks about there being real problems in life. Yes, I know. But this isn't a site for me to post about my father's ongoing stem-cell transplant, or my brain aneurysm and Lupus, is it?

Matt, you should leave the FA blank. It is my opinion (and that of others) that FA claims shouldn't have to be corrected when there is already a better method in place: FA:___ (which, like I said, is already used here on MP). It is your responsibility to post as correctly as possible. I publicly posted this instead of PM-ing you because you started a thread asking for help, yet you blatantly ignored the correct help that was given. MP is a great resource, but research should extend outside of MP and if you are asking for help, please name the area.

So, go ahead, continue to rip me apart. I deserve it. In fact, why don't you publicly stone me to death? Just remember: MP is only one way to contribute to the climbing community. I've organized and been part of rock cleaning days (you may not see chalk because people clean their messes), trash pick ups, clearing countless areas, and fundraisers for fallen climbers and their families, to name a few. There are many amazing climbers out there, and basic ethics are followed and taught (sometimes harshly). Please do not assume I am acting selfishly for not previously joining MP.

Jennifer, and I say this with all seriousness - if your father's and your own health situation is as you describe - stop wasting your time on this website writing novels. Go spend some time with him and do something you enjoy. Good luck to both of you with those ailments.

Jen, you really should have quit with your first post. Yeah Matt, could have done a better job at researching. But your vitriolic posts have really added little value. All ya needed to say was:

Hey Matt, I hate break it to ya but the area around Wagon Wheel has been visited by folks for quite while (decades) and there are lots routes. Some of the routes are in Southern Sierra Rock Climbing Domelands* but most have not been documented. I am not sure who the FA is on the routes you posted but am pretty sure they are not FAs. We visit the area regularly you would be welcome to join us.

• For those that do not know the Domelands book has been out of print for over 20 years.

The key word on my pronouncements is "public". You want to correct somebody, by all means, click "send them a message" in their profile. Nobody has to see it, its resolved like adults, everybody's happy. I've sent those pms, I've recieved those pms.

I've also left angry comments when I think a route description is egregiously out of line (e.g. pulling descriptions, verbatim, out of a printed guidebook, or having so little detail that you can't even find the route), and an object lesson in how not to make a route description. The question to ask yourself before you do that, though, is "what will people learn through my public, aggressive correction of them?" The answer, in this case, is that the Wagon Wheel scene is (apparently) fractious and clannish.

Jennifer, you're getting called on the carpet for turning an easily resolved private matter into a public matter. I agree, you've got a right to putting that information out there, and wanting the info to be right. You just need to work on your delivery.

wow, just checked out that crag.com website. whew, that place stinks.

Damn!
This hole keeps gettin' dug deeper!

sarcasm wrote:wow, just checked out that crag.com website. whew, that place stinks.

Check out the Boulder routes- it is awful.
thecrag.com/climbing/united…

I call a Maestri on Jennifer and her 50 friends. No dated photo and video evidence, no credit.
Sorry, but ethics are ethics.