Bowline Vs. Figure-8

Hey guys, I'm doing a research paper on tying in with a Figure-8 follow through vs. a bowline with various finishes. I'm not looking for any rants as to why one is better than another. I just want to know what knot do you consistently tie in with at the crag? If you use a different knot? a variation? and what finish you use on a bowline?

Probably more data points than you care for but...

For a stiff rope, fig 8.

For a soft rope, double bowline

For doubles or twins, fig 8's

For cleaning, single bowline

I found the bowline was a lot more important in very humid places (bermuda, thailand, RRG). In the dry CO air, it really doesn't seem to make much difference.

Wow, polling on MP now constitute as "research"? Sweet.

At the very least construct a survey for people to fill out. Go to your local gym, crag, and give people a survey to fill out.

Make an online survey and put the link here... something... This is just lazy.

Brian12345 wrote: I'm not looking for any rants as to why one is better than another.

Like that won't happen. :)

Fig 8 for me.

these days 90% figure eight.

10% I use this:

always back both up with a double fisherman's.

Brian12345 wrote:I'm not looking for any rants as to why one is better than another.

It's not going to be much of a research paper without a discussion of the merits and limitations of each knot.

And I agree you need a formalized survey instrument in order to do this properly, either online or at the gym/crag.

A debate about the bowline versus trace-8...wow that is new to Mountain Project. As someone already alluded, if an MP forum is your statistical sample then you should get an "F" on the paper.

From Rock and Ice rockandice.com/lates-news/n…

PREVENTION

Over the years, Rock and Ice has reported on several accidents caused when a bowline knot has come undone. These accidents might have been prevented if the climbing team had followed the standard procedure of visually inspecting the climber’s knot to determine that it was properly rendered, as well as confirming that the belay was rigged correctly before the climber begins the climb. Every climber should diligently follow this procedure. Make it a ritual, perform it with attention and never skip it. Furthermore, no knot is complete unless you yard on it to tighten it, and finish it with a stopper knot.

Finally, use a Trace-8 as your tie-in knot. It can be a hassle to untie after you yam onto it a dozen times while working your project, but that’s what you want from a knot. Climbers are injured or killed in accidents involving the bowline, but rarely the Trace-8. Think about it.

If I'm leading in the gym, a double bowline - I am super careful about making it clean, tight and with my double-fisherman's backup very snug.

Otherwise, figure-8.

I've never bothered to learn a bowline, so I kinda have to tie in with a figure 8. Maybe today I should finally go learn the bowline: I've only been putting it off for 20 years...

Or when I'm lazy: I tie in with an overhand knot with an inch of tail. What?

That said, your survey needs to have a representative sample of all climbers (read: random group of climbers), which answers to this thread will not be.

So how are you planning on using said answers?

Brian wrote:A debate about the bowline versus trace-8...wow that is new to Mountain Project. As someone already alluded, if an MP forum is your statistical sample then you should get an "F" on the paper. From Rock and Ice rockandice.com/lates-news/n… PREVENTION Over the years, Rock and Ice has reported on several accidents caused when a bowline knot has come undone. These accidents might have been prevented if the climbing team had followed the standard procedure of visually inspecting the climber’s knot to determine that it was properly rendered, as well as confirming that the belay was rigged correctly before the climber begins the climb. Every climber should diligently follow this procedure. Make it a ritual, perform it with attention and never skip it. Furthermore, no knot is complete unless you yard on it to tighten it, and finish it with a stopper knot. Finally, use a Trace-8 as your tie-in knot. It can be a hassle to untie after you yam onto it a dozen times while working your project, but that’s what you want from a knot. Climbers are injured or killed in accidents involving the bowline, but rarely the Trace-8. Think about it.

Likely derailing the thread but I'm gonna call a bit of BS on the R&I article. I'm aware of several "supposed" bowline failures over the years but I don't recall definite statements after the incident that a PROPERLY TIED (including finishing knot) BOWLINE has come undone. In nearly all cases, people suspect that the knot was tied incorrectly, not finished (required with a bowline) or NOT TIED AT ALL.

I've dropped the Fig 8 and now almost exclusively tie in with various bowlines.

Single Pitch, Single Rope Climbing = Double Bowline, Yos Finish, Double Fish backup.
Multi-Pitch, Single Rope = Retraced Bowline
Half Ropes - Double Bowline, Yos Finish, Double Fish backup

mattm wrote: ... I don't recall definite statements after the incident that a PROPERLY TIED (including finishing knot) BOWLINE has come undone. In nearly all cases, people suspect that the knot was tied incorrectly, not finished (required with a bowline) or NOT TIED AT ALL.

The problem is, "tied incorrectly" is one of the failure modes of the bowline that doesn't really exist with the figure-8. There is one way to tie a figure-8, (almost) everyone knows it, can recognize correct vs not, and easily inspect and verify that it is tied correctly. But, this is not the case for the many variations of the bowline.

Ahmed IbnHabibjan wrote:

LMFAO!!!!!!

I asked about the bowline recently. I used a retrace bowline for the first time on Sunday when I went sport climbing. I also took my first lead fall (just above the bolt). Untying the knot was easy afterwards. I will continue using this variation with a double fisherman's from now on unless a partner really prefers otherwise. But I still plan to use the figure 8 for multi-pitch trad and where I have to in the gym. I use a double fisherman's stopper on my figure 8 too.

David Gibbs wrote: The problem is, "tied incorrectly" is one of the failure modes of the bowline that doesn't really exist with the figure-8. There is one way to tie a figure-8, (almost) everyone knows it, can recognize correct vs not, and easily inspect and verify that it is tied correctly. But, this is not the case for the many variations of the bowline.

Tying a figure 8 incorrectly could result in failure as well (i.e. someone doesn't finish the knot)

Arguing about the "Safety" of a knot when tied incorrectly seems a bit off. The R&I article, and many other detractors, always seem to imply the knot is "less safe" which I disagree with. Is it a more difficult knot to tie? Sure. Some people will incorporate ease of implementation into their safety assessment which I don't necessarily disagree with but when they do that they're really evaluating the SAFETY SYSTEM, not the knot specifically.

A Bowline Tie-In is a more advanced system to implement correctly so, in the hands of less skilled or experienced climbers, yes, I'd agree the USING THE BOWLINE as a tie in (not the Knot itself) is a more risky system.

However, a competent climber skilled in tying the Bowline is, IMO not adding greater risk to their setup and in certain circumstances, the Bowline can be argued as the "Safer" choice. (IF you weld that Fig8 and have no means to get it unwelded 10 pitches off the deck with a rap decent and darkness on the way I'd argue the Bowline would have been the safer choice)

Similar debates could be had on things like a Manual Locking biner vs Autolocker. Things that reduce chances for mistakes certainly are useful in safety systems HOWEVER, failures need to be evaluated on user skill as well item difficulty.

NC Rock Climber wrote:these days 90% figure eight. 10% I use this: always back both up with a double fisherman's.

I use this too, a retraced bowline, when leading single pitch routes (especially if I'll be taking falls). I use a retraced figure eight any time I'm multi-pitching.

I'm kind of surprised to see it here, since I don't see the retraced bowline being used very often in the US (first time, actually). I learned it in Autralia, and I think it is a superior knot compared to any of the "regular" bowline with various finishes.

mattm wrote: Arguing about the "Safety" of a knot when tied incorrectly seems a bit off.

But arguing about ease of checking is definitely pertinent. I can glance at a figure 8 and know if it is tied correctly. In about 2½ years of climbing, I've seen it happen once (my knot, I was distracted as I tied, checked just before I started climbing and easily saw that one of the loops was single strand. Probably would have been safe anyway, and I had a double overhand backup, but I'm still glad I checked). I learned how to tie a bowline at one point, but even after I knew how to tie it I had to look very carefully to make sure a bowline was correct. Maybe somebody really skilled can check a bowline faster, but just because of the shape of the knot I suspect that a mis-tied figure 8 will always be more obvious.

mattm wrote: A Bowline Tie-In is a more advanced system to implement correctly so, in the hands of less skilled or experienced climbers, yes, I'd agree the USING THE BOWLINE as a tie in (not the Knot itself) is a more risky system.

ive noticed a trend among newer climbers to use the bowline because its "cooler" and shows you are a more "advanced climber"

and these are folks who climb with fairly new partners as well

i dont care what folks use, but im not learning every damn bowline variation so that i can check your knot ... of which even in MP theres whole multipage threads arguing back and forth about which bowline variation is "safe"

just like simulrapping (which you see new climbers do more now as its "cool" and "advanced"), IMO new climbers should stick to the figure 8 till they get everything else dialed and their newish partners do tooo

;)

I love the "more advanced climber" statement. I believe Lynn Hill fell because she had not finished her double bowline. I figure 8 is easier to spot check and see if it is tied correctly. To me that makes a lot of sense.

Sunny-D wrote:I love the "more advanced climber" statement. I believe Lynn Hill fell because she had not finished her double bowline. I figure 8 is easier to spot check and see if it is tied correctly. To me that makes a lot of sense.

Anecdotal, single data points of an advanced climber having a safety failure are pretty meaningless. How many MORE times did they tie that knot vs a beginning climber?

Not a statistician but you'd likely need to look at years of experience, have some metric for "advanced technical skills" and number of knots tied etc etc to really claim.

There are a metric ton of "advanced climbers" out there who've collectively tied a metric ton of bowlines over the years with ZERO issues.

While I do visually check my knot, I don't believe that's a significant reason to choose one over the other. Frankly, a visual check is secondary to a final PHYSICAL check where I yard on that rope to make sure it's good and tied to my harness [similar to how one should "proof load" their rap setup before unclipping from an anchor] Failure to complete EITHER knot would be caught by a proof load of your system before climbing.