Continue with onX Maps
Sign in with Facebook
Belay accident with Trango Cinch
Jake D. wrote: i do not believe it was caused by the wear. the Cinch is meant to be used on ropes from 9.5-10.whatever there is a huge margin of error in there for that space. if it was caused by wear then it would not work during his "jerk test" and it wouldn't hold any falls. the OP grabbed above the device which is a known failure point for Grigri and Cinch. user error. goodbye. i read that as well but what about alica and the reports on 8a about expeirenced belayers using it properly and it still failing? |
rock_fencer wrote:I wasnt trying to be cynical in my question...there was some testing done back a few years where the Gen 1 cinch actually broke apart in some strange pull test scenario. I was actually interested if that happened in a real world scenario. whoa... ya had no clue about that! um scary. i would say in most belay accidents it's likely human error but the Chinch seems to have that plus documented gear failure due to wear. I'll side with safety and limiting my risks as a priority above how easily the rope slips the wrong direction through the device so I can give my leader rope. Seems more important that I be able to take in that slack and hold it in rather then feed it out faster... no? |
|
folks ... remember that the cinch is really a minor niche device in the scheme of things .. you arent going to find any "real" significant statistics |
Jake D. wrote: i do not believe it was caused by the wear. the Cinch is meant to be used on ropes from 9.5-10.whatever there is a huge margin of error in there for that space. if it was caused by wear then it would not work during his "jerk test" and it wouldn't hold any falls. the OP grabbed above the device which is a known failure point for Grigri and Cinch. user error. goodbye. Look at the GriGri 2 video from Petzl and notice how everyone grabs the lead rope in anticipation of a fall. It's not a failure point for the GriGri. They also say don't grab the lead rope as if to arrest the fall with your hand, which was not what I was doing. I was grabbing the rope to steady myself in anticipation for the fall and you need to have a certain firmness on the rope to do that. |
KevinK wrote: I think it is natural to grab the lead rope when belaying. because no one corrected you when you first learned to belay. natural to fearfully grab things yes ill grant you that but especially if you expect a fall both hands should go to the braking strand. if you need to steady yourself then you have also failed to find a good spot to belay from initially which is yet another sign of poor form. |
rock_fencer wrote: because no one corrected you when you first learned to belay. natural to fearfully grab things yes ill grant you that but especially if you expect a fall both hands should go to the braking strand. if you need to steady yourself then you have also failed to find a good spot to belay from initially which is yet another sign of poor form. im culpable as well. we can always do more to be aware and sometimes going back to basics is beneficial cool. Maybe you should go and correct all those pro climbers in the video and thousands of climbers out there while you are at it. |
KevinK wrote: not being a dick kevin. just bringing up points for discussion and getting down to why we have so many failures with auto assisting belay devices. you posted up so you should expect responses. |
John Wilder wrote: the difference is all those thousands of climbers are actually grabbing the rope solidly with their brake hand and gently with their lead hand. grabbing the rope with your lead hand is a no-no during the actual fall. I didn't grab it to with the intention to stop the fall with my bare hands. I mentioned this many times. |
bearbreeder wrote: the smart IMO though is probably the "best" assisted locking device for most single pitch climbers What do you think of this ? |
John Wilder wrote: grabbing the rope with your lead hand is a no-no during the actual fall. Find that for me on the Petzl website...it's not preferred but it ain't a big no-no. The only no-no is to NOT grab the brake end of the rope during a fall. For any device other than the Cinch, nothing bad really happens if you grab the lead end. At most you may burn that hand a bit, but you are not going to drop the climber. |
rock_fencer wrote: not being a dick kevin. just bringing up points for discussion and getting down to why we have so many failures with auto assisting belay devices. you posted up so you should expect responses. I'm not telling you to do anything just suggesting that assessing how we do things from time to time is beneficial to keeping everyone on their toes, avoiding complacency, and truly minimizing the risks we take. FWIW pro climbers do a lot of things that do not necessarily present safety at its finest. No offense taken. I shared my experience to warn people about the Cinch. I have made my points and we disagree. It's fine. |
Syd wrote: What do you think of this ? I'm starting to prefer my mega jul to my gri gri. The mega jul works on a similar principle to the smart. I've never had anything like the problems claimed in the video. Accidents like the one described are almost impossible with the mega jul because even if it fails to auto lock, it works like an ATC. It's also designed to be reversed to work exactly like an ATC ... and it's lighter than an ATC. accidents are certainly possible with the smart |
bearbreeder wrote: .... what gets me is when i see people being trained to catch in a fall ... i dont understand why they dont teach em to bring BOTH HANDS ON THE BRAKE ... dynamic belays brah! |
rock_fencer wrote: dynamic belays brah! and i'm officially done for the day, i have an exam tomorrow. Been nice fellas Ive give plenty of dynamic belays where both hands went under the atc |
|
I owned a cinch. It wore out, quickly I might add. Once it wore out it began failing as is typical of the device. I switched to the GriGri2 and am still using it many years later with no issues. |
Syd wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6SDdi2xCB4 "There goes my hat. OK, we're doing this with no hat. OK." |
Jake Jones wrote:o, with this wear, and with proper use, it catches decent .4 to .6 ff falls with no issue. And then one day it just won't? That's what alot of you are saying, right? Maybe it's just me, but I fail to see the logic in that, especially without those "real or significant statistics" that can't be found- aka actual evidence to substantiate a claim. There's enough anecdotal evidence on this thread to make me uneasy on the idea of being belayed by a cinch. No matter how competent the belayer. I know from experience that at least a couple people here reporting slippage are good climbers, solid belayers, and have demonstrated excellent knowledge of rigging systems. So hearing that it failed on them is not encouraging. |
|
Mal no longer works for Trango so he isn't as active in discussions about their stuff as he used to be. I think his work with Paradox Sports is far more important. Jake Jones wrote:I agree with you Jon, and for the same premise. I guess I'm just not as uneasy about it because it has never failed me, and with little empirical evidence (disregarding claims such as the OP's that can't really be verified or recreated) to suggest that one day it will just happen out of nowhere. I've belayed with a Smart, and it seemed funky- I can't really be more descriptive than that- but I guess every device to a new user is that way at first. Maybe I'll pick up a GriGri2 and see how I like it. I understand completely the stance that this shit doesn't just happen for no reason, and at least some percentage of these accounts probably hold water. Still though, seeing is believing, and it's been an excellent device for me, so I remain reluctant. It can't hurt to try other options, though, so I suppose your point is well taken. I would be interested in hearing Mal Daly's take on all of this, although it has the potential to be a bit biased. |
John Wilder wrote: the difference is all those thousands of climbers are actually grabbing the rope solidly with their brake hand and gently with their lead hand. grabbing the rope with your lead hand is a no-no during the actual fall. Watching the Petzl instructional video again, it says around 1:47-2:00 mark, "that the GriGri should be used like any friction plate device, with one hand on the climber side of the rope, one hand on the braking side of the rope. This is the principle belay position and you must also adopt this belay position." |
John Marsella wrote: Do you brake with the climber side hand when using a tube style device? PS trango cinch belay device for sale Since I haven't dropped anyone using a tube style device, the answer is no. |
