Avalon- Poached Routes

can't this thread die already.

Considering how this thread has deteriorated, I think that this video is both appropriate and on-topic:

youtube.com/watch?v=ddjD4c-…

Tucson- a small enough city where most climbers know of each other but not big enough for people to realize their local dramas are re-darn-diculous to just about everyone out there.

I personally would NEVER bolt a route someone had cleaned and put anchors on without calling/face to face FIRST. no excuse for that anywhere.

NC Rock Climber wrote:Considering how this thread has deteriorated, I think that this video is both appropriate and on-topic:

I seriously owe you a beer for that.. I came here to basically feel better about my entire day not expecting that at all. I really needed to laugh like that. Thanks NCRC...

Dan Cohen wrote:It is clear that Jim and Geir have no qualms about poaching routes. I certainly understand Steve's desire to avoid conflict, but this sort of episode is bound to repeat if they are not held accountable for their actions.

If they truly don't give a shit like you say, then they're going to continue doing it regardless of what you or anybody here (or even in person) says anyways. The reality is that they have just as much legal right to place a bolt and climb a route as anybody else; tact and ethics are not enforced by any laws. Continuing to rag on them is just as possible to make the situation worse as it is to make it better (though I doubt it will do either). You're wasting your time.

Hey Daryl. I am glad you liked it. It always makes me laugh too. I'll look forward to introducing myself to you at the crag and taking you up on that beer!

Steven W. Johnson wrote:Thanks for the discussion. My main purpose for posting was to findout who finished the routes so that I could ask that in the future as a courtesy to contact or other FAist in other areas. I am not into route establishment for the glory but the adventure, creativity and the benefit of the climing community. Avalon is a community crag with fourth-fifths of the monetary expense coming from the Tucson climbing community; Thanks Tucson. I establish easy to moderate routes with a few harder here and there; no glory in that. I finished the last project at Avalon this Sunday and climbed both of the routes that were the topic of this discussion. They are good routes and good additions to Avalon; and, Mt. lemmon. The right one is a hell of a lot harder than I had hoped it would be; solid lead and on very solid rock. Mentioned in the threads above were comments/questions about people being to Avalon previously and putting up three routes. This is true, estimated that they are thirty years old. I did research the history of the rock and those routes. I was not and have not been able to get information as of yet to who put them up. My thanks to Geir for replacing the two bolts on one route; three more bolts to go between two routes. Also, thanks Geir for your your post.

NC Rock Climber wrote:Hey Daryl. I am glad you liked it. It always makes me laugh too. I'll look forward to introducing myself to you at the crag and taking you up on that beer!

I called my daughter [7yrs old] into the room and we must have watched it about 10 times. I've never heard her laugh like that... definitely owe you a cold one. I'll be up in Phoenix this weekend and was thinking about throwing the gear in the car. You going to be doing anything near Camelback?

It is really cool to hear about your and your daughter. Thanks for sharing that! My son is only 4 months old, so it will be a little while until he gets fart jokes. I am looking forward to sharing that kind of a laugh with him!

Meeting a Camelback would be great, but I am either going to the Homestead or Jacks. My vote was for Jacks, but my two partners have yet to vote so the final destination is still up in the air. We will have to do that beer another time. I hope you have a great weekend!

Dan Cohen wrote:What agenda of mine do you see beyond calling out route-poaching?

Dan, I have no issue with you. I do not even know you except for your consistent badgering of Geir.

Yes, Geir is a good friend. I may on occasion disagree with some of his decisions, but I support him. Jim is also a friend. My reference to an "agenda" was simply to point out that whenever you confront him on-line your position is always the same; hostile and accusatory.

I retract my statement that your comments were inflammatory. I stand corrected.

Although I too hope this thread dies I wanted to correct my position.

For the record, I too think that if a bolted anchor (on a sport route) has been set then reasonable attempts should be made to contact the person who started the work if another party wishes to finish the line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8dT1w5sp74&feature=youtu.be

isn't MP lovely, steve? you post a reasonable question in a respectful manner and describe how you were affected by someone's discourtesy toward your many hours of work, and then every douchebag on MP jumps out of the woodworks and tells you the rock isn't yours, you're making a big deal out of nothing, etc., etc.

this site has been very poorly moderated over the past 3 years and this is what we get. i used to have reasonable discussions here about fairly important issues, but there is simply no point any more. at least the route database is decent.

Pueblo chico, infierno grande...

Jon Ruland wrote:isn't MP lovely, steve? you post a reasonable question in a respectful manner and describe how you were affected by someone's discourtesy toward your many hours of work, and then every douchebag on MP jumps out of the woodworks and tells you the rock isn't yours, you're making a big deal out of nothing, etc., etc. this site has been very poorly moderated over the past 3 years and this is what we get. i used to have reasonable discussions here about fairly important issues, but there is simply no point any more. at least the route database is decent.

Guess you just decided not to read all the posts where people agreed it was a dick move?

Jeepers Dan how I'm I going to sleep at night knowing you are unwilling to give me a pass. My only purpose in life is gain your respect and for you to be my friend. Knowing that you are out there angry with me is more than I can bare.

Oh the humanity!!!

My offer still stands, any one that wants to come out to an area I'm developing and do routes is more than welcome anytime.

Dan the guy you hang out with would never make this offer, ever! Which is why you are sooooo outraged buy this whole affair. Put the bong away, examine your motivations and get a life.

EFR would be proud of that fart.

Jon feel free to start your on website if you don't like how this one is run.

What would Clutchy do???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri1TvyLGuPk&feature=related

Dan Cohen wrote:but this sort of episode is bound to repeat if they are not held accountable for their actions.

So are chiseling, retrobolting routes without consent from the FA, and mass-manufacturing holds using glue. Be careful what you hope for! :)

Snap!!!

^^^^^^ hahahahahahahaha!!! Now that is funny! I think I am going to dye my hair black and get a bowl cut.

Ian Stewart wrote: If they truly don't give a shit like you say, then they're going to continue doing it regardless of what you or anybody here (or even in person) says anyways. The reality is that they have just as much legal right to place a bolt and climb a route as anybody else; tact and ethics are not enforced by any laws. Continuing to rag on them is just as possible to make the situation worse as it is to make it better (though I doubt it will do either). You're wasting your time.

I disagree that they are indifferent to what people say on this forum or otherwise. I doubt that if their friends (a few of whom have posted that they disagree with route poaching on this thread) held them accountable, they would not listen. I think it is the duty of those close to us to call us out when we are acting unethically. These people have overlooked Geir and Jim's actions, otherwise this whole thread would not have occurred or would have resulted in Jim and Geir giving a simple and honest apology to Steve. Jim and Geir use paper-thin logic, childish name-calling, and are clearly incapable or unwilling to engage in any sort of adult conversation.

As we are seeing, if a number of people express their opinions in a moderate voice, Jim and Geir's weak logic, hostility, and disappearing acts only serve to make them look like bullies. If they were contrite for their poaching, and I continued to single them out, then that would qualify as badgering. Being that they display the maturity level of a couple of 13 year old girls, their actions should continue to be scrutinized.