New Nomics?? :)

Here is a picture so people can make their own analysis. All the old Petzl picks are B-rated while all the new Petzl picks are T-rated.

Top is the old Astro pick.
Middle is the current Ice Pick.
Bottom is the old Cascade pick.

You can clearly see the new Ice pick is similar to the old Astro pick in tooth design and curve. The old Astro pick is designed for mixed climbing so hooking is important.

I've been racking my brain on how to make the new Ice pick to be like the old Cascade and haven't figured out a good way yet. Also, the new Ice pick has a different curve angle which I think is the exact (or very close) to the old Astro. I'm not an expert at this like Dane and other guys on the forums. From all the evidence (angle of the curve, tooth design), I can only make a guess that the new Ice pick is very very similar to the old Astro pick. If that's the case, it's unfortunate because the old Astro pick is TERRIBLE at ice climbing.

Just to add my own observations of the new petzl picks, I agree with Dane and Kevin. The new Ice picks, while better than the old Astros, are definitely not as good as the old cascades from my experience using both of them last season on a pair of new Quarks and old Nomics.

I'm pretty sure the reason is the same already mentioned: the angle of the first tooth.

My issue with the old Astros on pure ice was always just as much about ice displacement as stickiness, so the fact that the new ice pick is 3mm at the tip helps to address the former issue. As with the astros, I'm hoping once the new ice picks get worn down a little their performance will improve in that respect. With the astros I found that after wearing them down a bit on some mixed they turned into a much more ice amenable pick. Out of the box the terrible adjective, while maybe a touch harsh, is not far off.

I plan on picking up an extra pair of cascades while I can still find them.

I bought up a bunch of Cascade picks earlier just because of the new design work I caught early on.

I documented all this in much more detail on my blog somewhere. Likely under petzl picks iirc. But I have added another here:

coldthistle.blogspot.com/20…

The new picks have a couple more degrees added to them. Bad move imo.
The big first tooth can be cut down almost flat on the ICE. Then make sure the lower tooth taper is well defined to ease removal. The tools then climb pretty much like a Cascade pick. Takes only a minute or so with a hand file. Bit more work and a good buffer and you and change the top angle some but I didn't find it worth the effort last winter. First tooth cut down now and I am done with them. I use my Cascade picks to climb Candaian water ice, And the new picks in the Rockies, Alps, Alaska or anywhere else I know I quickly roach a pick anyway.

Sticky MFs in any kind of ice if you don't cut that first tooth. Better yet if you trim the rest as well. best to just mimic the original Cascade pick.

Still I don't do anything to the Cascade picks and they climb great right out of the package. Hard to believe anyone could intentionally fook up a good thing so badly.

Guess I just need to learn how to climb better. Or may be they need some better climbers in the Petzl engineering department. If you have to gauge that by my skills, they must *really* suck.

For those that want to voice your concern about the availability of the older Cascade pick (or lack of) to Petzl directly..more here and a contact:

coldthistle.blogspot.com/20…

Dane wrote:For those that want to voice your concern about the availability of the older Cascade pick (or lack of) to Petzl directly..more here and a contact: coldthistle.blogspot.com/20…

I gave Mr. Adams a polite bitch fest on the shittyness of the new picks and suggested that petzl go back to the older disign that the B rated picks had

Must be why Petzl requested future emails go to the info box :)

All it takes to get it done is, enough of us drop them an email.

Dane wrote:Must be why Petzl requested future emails go to the info box :) All it takes to get it done is, enough of us drop them an email.

I got a reply back for the my email. I was told the reason the the new angle and extra large front tooth was for better dry tooling performance and thin ice conditions where it madd the shallow sticks better. for fat ice the front tooth would have to filed a bit to loose the sticky nature of the new picks

I also sent Mr. Adams a nice email, and his response only confirmed a sneaking suspicion that he is an excellent copy and paster. Odds are, he's sent that same email out 6 or 7 times just this evening.

Thomas Gappmayer wrote:I also sent Mr. Adams a nice email, and his response only confirmed a sneaking suspicion that he is an excellent copy and paster. Odds are, he's sent that same email out 6 or 7 times just this evening.

That is why cut and paste was invented.

I have to say, this is an awful lot of complaining over a product change that requires 30 seconds of filing to correct back to what you want. I haven't used a pick out of package without taking a file to it in 20 years of ice climbing.

Dane(no offense), you seem to complain a lot about Petzl while praising Petzl at the same time. I am not saying that noting a problem they might have or a displeasure with a change is a bad thing, but you might make a little headway by calling them rather than trying to start an Arab spring style uprising every time they change something you don't like. More flies with honey is all I am saying.

PT

"Dane (no offense), you seem to complain a lot about Petzl while praising Petzl at the same time."

None taken. With 20K visits a week to the blog as you might imagine I get a lot of back channel emails. The two single hardware topics that generate the most email are Petzl's new picks and Petzl's new pommel design. When your first gen tool climbs better and is more reliable than your third I might suggest there is a problem.

This is just one thread on the Internet about the new picks, but there are several elsewhere and at least one on the newest pommels failing as well.

Admittedly or not today all the major climbing companies seem to use the end users as beta product testers. To do that successfully they need direct feedback.

I can do nothing on the blog but offer some little advice on how to modify the picks. But for pure ice I don't doubt the Cascade is a better design. So emailing me doesn't help. Emailing Petzl directly (their idea not mine) with your concerns just might.

I had a pretty long conversation with the Petzl rep at Ice Fest in N. Conway last weekend about the new Nomic vs. old. When I pressed him about the poor performance of the new Ice pick he told me that they've changed the Ice pick's angle since it was released to fix the problems, and that it's now "the best pick ever" on ice. That doesn't really jive with what I've read on Dane's blog or elsewhere, but since I'm still rockin' a pair of worn Astro picks on my old Nomics I'm the wrong one to pass judgment.

Still, sounds a lot like a case of denial...

This is the content I got from Petzl yesterday.

"As for the picks they were redesigned to be a better all-around pick. The first tooth is now a bit steeper/ more aggressive making more of a hook greatly improving its performance on thin hook placements (rock or ice). That said when you get a good deep stick in ice it can be a little more difficult to clean. Despite what our goal was , I’ll take yours and the other comments I’ve received on the picks and pass them onto our design team."

Hi,
I am back into the 'ice game' this year after retirement for many years. Of course tools have changed dramatically versus when I climbed - back then - we didn't climb leashless or have tools with bent shafts, etc. I see the term B and T rated picks. What does that mean may I ask?

I just bought a pair of Viper's - will be trying them out this weekend here in NY. Hoping I like them - tho I have to say - I kinda like the shape of the Petzl picks better from the pics that I am seeing on here. I am thnking that maybe the tip of the BD pick is too 'rounded' versus the Petzl pick being more of a 'squared-off' shape? Does this matter much?

Michael Urban wrote:Hi, I am back into the 'ice game' this year after retirement for many years. Of course tools have changed dramatically versus when I climbed - back then - we didn't climb leashless or have tools with bent shafts, etc. I see the term B and T rated picks. What does that mean may I ask? I just bought a pair of Viper's - will be trying them out this weekend here in NY. Hoping I like them - tho I have to say - I kinda like the shape of the Petzl picks better from the pics that I am seeing on here. I am thnking that maybe the tip of the BD pick is too 'rounded' versus the Petzl pick being more of a 'squared-off' shape? Does this matter much?

For what it's worth, when I got the new Nomics when they first came out, I hated the picks. I feel BD picks were climbing better, especially if you file the first notch at the bottom of the pick. To be honest, don't worry too much about the tools. Vipers are excellent tools for ice. I actually don't like Nomics on easy terrains.

divnamite wrote: For what it's worth, when I got the new Nomics when they first came out, I hated the picks. I feel BD picks were climbing better, especially if you file the first notch at the bottom of the pick. To be honest, don't worry too much about the tools. Vipers are excellent tools for ice. I actually don't like Nomics on easy terrains.

OK great - thanks for the info!

Anybody else pop out the little plastic plug that covers the hole in the middle of the shaft?

I smacked mine climbing over a bulge or something. Now there is a little piece rattling around inside my tool.

How should I get it out? And what is that hole for anyway?

JohnnyG wrote:Anybody else pop out the little plastic plug that covers the hole in the middle of the shaft? I smacked mine climbing over a bulge or something. Now there is a little piece rattling around inside my tool. How should I get it out? And what is that hole for anyway?

You can tape it or wrap it like other thread shown. Getting it out might be an exercise in futility. The hole is for adding leash, at least in the older version I had.

Johnny G - that plug is in there forever. Get used to it.

Michael - Here is an article on the CE/UIAA ratings for technical ice axes: spadout.com/a/basic-technic…

That little thing that rattles around annoys the shit out of my partner. Not me so much, still though i think it is something they should fix and or warranty for those whom it bothers enough.

Like most pics they seem to stick much less once you get through that first half of tooth and or remove the steep angle of the first tooth when new.

APBT1976 wrote:Like most pics they seem to stick much less once you get through that first half of tooth and or remove the steep angle of the first tooth when new.

Over driving your brand new Nomic picks sucks. Seriously.