Good representation of the grade: 5.7-5.9 multi-pitch what do you think?

My fiance and I will be headed to Red Rocks April 13-18. Climbing the 14th-17th. This is my 5th trip out there and I've done a lot of the more popular moderates. She will be seconding everything with about a half a dozen trad seconds under her belt so far. Possibly leading later in the week if she's comfortable. She's never done any multi-pitch before and I'm looking to give her a good representation of the grades without too much commitment for our first day.

I'm thinking of hitting the Lotta Balls area. Partly because I've climbed Lotta Balls twice so I'm familiar with the area and I really want to get on Black Magic.

I'm thinking

Dodgeball (5.7 6 pitches)
Black Magic (5.8 4 pitches)
Bruja's Brew (5.9 4 pitches)

I understand this is 14 pitches total and there's a big chance we won't be moving fast enough to hit Bruja's but we don't mind an alpine start and as long as I can get black magic done I'll be happy. Most likely we can do the first pitch of Bruja's and rap from the anchors since it seems like pitch 1 is the quality pitch anyways. Comments or other suggestions?

With girlfriends, wives, etc, gentle nudges are best. I would cut your day in half. Keep it fun, short and not too stressful. It is much better to have her wanting more.

For what it's worth, I don't think that a half dozen trad seconds is enough to start leading, especially in a place like Red Rocks. I spent a whole season following, dozens of pitches, before I tried to lead anything. Cleaning gear provides valuable instruction on what constitutes a good placement (assuming the leader is competent). And the second gains some experience manipulating gear from awkward positions. Furthermore, climbing and placing gear in RR demands a certain care because of the more fragile nature of the rock. It's not a good place to be figuring things out as you go with limited experience.

I think you should focus on getting up Black Magic as already mentioned, or maybe something even easier. Someone with no multi-pitch experience isn't climbing 14 pitches in a day on three different routes with complicated descents in between. I'd have a hard time doing that with my wife and she's climbed hundreds of pitches, follows 5.11, and has lots of alpine experience. I guarantee she'd be pissed off by the end of the day.

Why don't you try somewhere with some shorter routes in the 5.7-5.9 range before you throw her on a RR multipitch? Icebox Canyon has some great stuff. Necromancer has Sensuous Mortician and Fold Out. Sunnyside has Magellenic Cloud, Shady Ladies, Cold September Corner, Mister Masters. Or maybe Brass Wall. You can do Birdland (much easier to bail from than Black Magic) and Bighorn and then round things out with Topless Twins, Varnishing Point, Straight Shooter. Black Magic is great, but I'd plan on it being the big route of the day, with maybe a shorter pitch or two (Romper Room area) to round out the day.

Nick Mardirosian wrote:My fiance and I will be headed to Red Rocks April 13-18. Climbing the 14th-17th. This is my 5th trip out there and I've done a lot of the more popular moderates. She will be seconding everything with about a half a dozen trad seconds under her belt so far. Possibly leading later in the week if she's comfortable. She's never done any multi-pitch before and I'm looking to give her a good representation of the grades without too much commitment for our first day. I'm thinking of hitting the Lotta Balls area. Partly because I've climbed Lotta Balls twice so I'm familiar with the area and I really want to get on Black Magic. I'm thinking Dodgeball (5.7 6 pitches) Black Magic (5.8 4 pitches) Bruja's Brew (5.9 4 pitches) I understand this is 14 pitches total and there's a big chance we won't be moving fast enough to hit Bruja's but we don't mind an alpine start and as long as I can get black magic done I'll be happy. Most likely we can do the first pitch of Bruja's and rap from the anchors since it seems like pitch 1 is the quality pitch anyways. Comments or other suggestions?

Are you planning all this in a one day? Because if you are that seems like a lot of pitches for a new second to do in one outing. She may be a natural climber but her being efficient with gear and rope management, and you leading everything, will eat away at your time. A more modest goal, as mentioned above, might make for a enjoyable time.

Your girlfriend will do one descent and want to call it a day. Total bushwack down all these routes.

Black Magic is a great route not to be missed though. One good 5.8 move and superb crack-face climbing.

I'll echo the others in that that is way too ambitious for one-day. Black Magic is the best of the routes mentioned and in my opinion should be your highest priority. If you still have more climbing left in you after that then you can do the first pitch of Bruja's Brew and rap off. If you do Bruja's you want to bring a small cam (Metolius 0) or equivelant for the crux which is tricky to protect. You stretch across and place it way out right and clip it before commiting to the crux traverse which you can see from the ground.

Nick Mardirosian wrote:... a good representation of the grades ... Dodgeball (5.7 6 pitches) ... Black Magic (5.8 4 pitches) ... Bruja's Brew (5.9 4 pitches)

Some useful comments so far about big days, etc. Let me address the "good representation" part. Bruja's Brew is balancy and technical. Black Magic is much easier, but the exposure might seem mind-blowing to someone new. Dodgeball is longer, more creative pro, no bolt anchors, trickier descent, and requires dealing safely with the "alarmingly perched block" on the second pitch.

So, assuming the climber can reasonably handle 5.9, the overall feel of the climbs (and likely the probability of dying) is in sort of reverse order of the ratings, at least to a new climber. I guess that means the answer is, "No, these routes are not a good representation of the grades."

My suggestion is to go climb Algae on Parade, then if you have time hit up Black Magic.

Thanks for the advice, after I thought about it I figured I was being way too ambitious. I did solar slab with a non-leader a couple trips ago and we moved pretty fast and it was still an all day affair with the descent and I think that was only 11 or 12 pitches.

I'd love to do Birdland with her but the last time I was on it we had to climb through 6 people and I think that'll really add to the stress of her first experience, that's why I was thinking Dodgeball would be good as I figured we'd have the whole route to ourselves. Maybe we'll jump on something else over by birdland. Thanks again.

sqwirll wrote:My suggestion is to go climb Algae on Parade, then if you have time hit up Black Magic.

I'll look into this one too thanks

How about The Great Red Book, 5.8?

Easy approach, plus you can rap it or do the walk-off.

-Glenn

Glenn Gordon wrote:How about The Great Red Book, 5.8? Easy approach, plus you can rap it or do the walk-off. -Glenn

too short and I've done everything else in the area I was interested in.

Nick Mardirosian wrote: too short and I've done everything else in the area I was interested in.

What's the over under on this relationship?(sorry Nick, you seem like a good guy, but had to bust your balls)

Doug Foust wrote: What's the over under on this relationship?(sorry Nick, you seem like a good guy, but had to bust your balls)

she knows what's up! (and she's not on this site so I can say whatever I want) hahahaha

Nick Mardirosian wrote:...as long as I can get black magic done I'll be happy...

I wasn't going to bust your balls either, but my wife pointed out the same thing that others are alluding to even before the follow-up posts.

Careful...or you'll be coming home from Vegas with an empty seat next to you on the plane.

As someone who climbs almost exclusively with my wife these days, I can tell you that it's a delicate balance. And my wife already really enjoyed climbing when we met. But she gets moody...and tired...and has off days. So do most people, but your significant other may be more likely to voice it. At the end of the day, her having fun and not wanting to divorce me is more important than any route.

We went on a road trip together in the first year that we were dating...2.5 months in a van together. I had WAY overinflated ideas of what she would be able to deal with on alpine routes (she had done plenty of multi-pitch trad, including RR, but no alpine). But your idea of 3 long-ish routes in a day for someone who's never done any multi-pitch is even more ridiculous.

If you want to be successful climbing with your fiancee, you have to compromise on some of your own personal goals and establish new goals for the two of you together. When I met my wife, I had spent multiple seasons in Europe, NZ, Peru, etc. I haven't really done that kind of climbing since we met, but I've done tons of awesome trad and alpine rock routes that we could enjoy together. Goals that I had before we met (like the Cassin Ridge) may never happen now, but my life is so much better overall.

I don't need the Cassin anymore. Probably you'll realize the same, but if you really love her...be careful, man.

Tom,

Beautifully stated. We could all do well to keep that sort of perspective.

Tom Fralich wrote: I wasn't going to bust your balls either, but my wife pointed out the same thing that others are alluding to even before the follow-up posts. Careful...or you'll be coming home from Vegas with an empty seat next to you on the plane. As someone who climbs almost exclusively with my wife these days, I can tell you that it's a delicate balance. And my wife already really enjoyed climbing when we met. But she gets moody...and tired...and has off days. So do most people, but your significant other may be more likely to voice it. At the end of the day, her having fun and not wanting to divorce me is more important than any route. We went on a road trip together in the first year that we were dating...2.5 months in a van together. I had WAY overinflated ideas of what she would be able to deal with on alpine routes (she had done plenty of multi-pitch trad, including RR, but no alpine). But your idea of 3 long-ish routes in a day for someone who's never done any multi-pitch is even more ridiculous. If you want to be successful climbing with your fiancee, you have to compromise on some of your own personal goals and establish new goals for the two of you together. When I met my wife, I had spent multiple seasons in Europe, NZ, Peru, etc. I haven't really done that kind of climbing since we met, but I've done tons of awesome trad and alpine rock routes that we could enjoy together. Goals that I had before we met (like the Cassin Ridge) may never happen now, but my life is so much better overall. I don't need the Cassin anymore. Probably you'll realize the same, but if you really love her...be careful, man.

Thanks for the advice, I agree my original idea was way overboard. We only have 4 days out there this trip and I really wish we were staying longer so we could do more. Cramming 8 days worth of climbing into 4 is going to be miserable for everyone involved. I wouldn't throw her into a situation that I didn't think she could handle though. We've been climbing together for almost 4 years and she's the one that got me into it actually, she's just been busy with finishing grad school and a new job while I've been on a trad/multi-pitch kick. It's definitely not something she's going to leave me over lol. She's pretty cool (trusts me that she'll enjoy it) with me setting the climbing plans, she's just happy to be outside enjoying the wilderness and climbing. No high maintenance woman here ;)

I've changed our plans around a bit and decided to do something shorter that I've already done, possibly followed by some single pitch stuff for the first day. This way I'm familiar with the route and the commitment factor will be low.

I really appreciate the advice though, my personality is usually 100% "on/full throttle" all the time and sometimes it's hard to find people with the same mindset that enjoy it as I do.

-Nick

Well, c'mon man...trip report?

We did birdland early before the crowds, got to the top of the 3rd pitch and the exposure got to her a bit so we rapped off. She wants to give it another try but I think the correct approach would have been to spend a couple days doing 2-3 pitch routes. She was the same way when we first started climbing single pitch stuff she just needs time to get used to it. The rest of the trip I climbed a day with Larry and then did some single pitch stuff with some friends from home that were newer to climbing. Can't wait to get back out.