SOUTHERN ARIZONA CLIMBING ETIQUETTE - XXX - January-------Subtracting bolts (Chop Chop)

I agree England! I'm out of here.

Good Times
Joe Garcia
Phoenix, AZ

So people flaming about this or that on MP effects you when your out at a crag climbing in Southern AZ, how?

Don't know about you guys but when I'm on the sharp end I'm not thinking about some post on MP. I'm thinking about climbing, and the climbing is stellar here.

In all seriousness, hopefully, Geir's Christianity has something to do with why Joe spoke so highly of him. An ideal that would permeate every aspect of his life, including his climbing ethic, which Joe encourages us to focus on.

What I really like is that Joe and I agree that by dressing up in jihad Geir proves that he "doesn't represent any faith but crazy". Which is why I wrote in the first place. His actions violate essential Christian values. So he screwed up, we all do. So, as he has proven, and as he admits, "is imperfect in his spirituality", which also transcends to being imperfect in his climbing ethics. Climbing ethics, are something that Geir seems to think we should all be talking about on mountain project. He encourages and calls people out on this website. So here we are, talking about how someone who admits his ethics are "imperfect" screwed up.

Geir, you are right, CrazyClimber should have written you a PM. But the whole thing that started this thread was the chopping of a route that you, personally, did not agree with.

Did you approach Scott Ayers “a fellow Christian” (who (you) claim has slighted (you)in the manner that Jesus himself taught (Matt 18:15-17). I would imagine a truly devout, practicing Christian be aware of this as it’s in the first book of the Bible detailing Jesus’ teachings. "? (quoted from Geir's previous post).

Just to review the actual passage is "“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you.

Christians are not coming at Christians. People are finally trying to hold others up to a higher standard then what is normally allowed on this website. Jimbo clearly drags everyone down and even insults and mocks his BFF's. Then Geir thanks him for his insight!! How can you to even talk to each other anymore?

Jodie-I too am surprised that Geir could dress up as a jihad and expect to get away with it, does he think he is above everyone else? He participates in calling people out on this website and then give us some bible quote saying people should contact him privately. I looked up some of his posts, he even goes as far as getting other people to do his dirty work, as in a post where Geir insisted that Dan Sealer "you call him out, dan". Getting someone else to do your dirty work Geir so that you can still appear virtuous?

Keri wrote:In all seriousness, hopefully, Geir's Christianity has something to do with why Joe spoke so highly of him. An ideal that would permeate every aspect of his life, including his climbing ethic, which Joe encourages us to focus on. What I really like is that Joe and I agree that by dressing up in jihad Geir proves that he "doesn't represent any faith but crazy". Which is why I wrote in the first place. His actions violate essential Christian values. So he screwed up, we all do. So, as he has proven, and as he admits, "is imperfect in his spirituality", which also transcends to being imperfect in his climbing ethics. Climbing ethics, are something that Geir seems to think we should all be talking about on mountain project. He encourages and calls people out on this website. So here we are, talking about how someone who admits his ethics are "imperfect" screwed up. Geir, you are right, CrazyClimber should have written you a PM. But the whole thing that started this thread was the chopping of a route that you, personally, did not agree with. Did you approach Scott Ayers “a fellow Christian” (who (you) claim has slighted (you)in the manner that Jesus himself taught (Matt 18:15-17). I would imagine a truly devout, practicing Christian be aware of this as it’s in the first book of the Bible detailing Jesus’ teachings. "? (quoted from Geir's previous post). Just to review the actual passage is "“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. Christians are not coming at Christians. People are finally trying to hold others up to a higher standard then what is normally allowed on this website. Jimbo clearly drags everyone down and even insults and mocks his BFF's. Then Geir thanks him for his insight!! How can you to even talk to each other anymore? Jodie-I too am surprised that Geir could dress up as a jihad and expect to get away with it, does he think he is above everyone else? He participates in calling people out on this website and then give us some bible quote saying people should contact him privately. I looked up some of his posts, he even goes as far as getting other people to do his dirty work, as in a post where Geir insisted that Dan Sealer "you call him out, dan". Getting someone else to do your dirty work Geir so that you can still appear virtuous?

Why are you incapable of understanding humor?

Humor requires an open mind, not one clouded and blinded by dogma and intolerance.

Jodi and Kari are right. Geir and I should be brought before a Christian tribunal and then executed.
Works in Iran, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan after all.

Same close minded shit just a different religion.

Keri,
Scott was involved in an off MP email correspondence that went on for weeks. He chose to not participate. He had ample opportunity to address the climbing community on this issue and he didn't.

"Keri" wrote:People are finally trying to hold others up to a higher standard then what is normally allowed on this website.

No, one person and two BS anonymous aliases (that equals 3) are trying to hold others up to their own standards. And nobody else is buying in.

Edit to add: The one real person has since deleted her comments.

Jimbo wrote:Humor requires an open mind, not one clouded and blinded by dogma and intolerance.

+10

Keri - Jihad is a noun meaning struggle. While Geir might have struggled to find or get into that costume, I'm not sure how he could dress up as a struggle? Perhaps you meant jihadist ?
And what exactly is it you think he didn't get away with, humor?

I think the votes are in and he (and Jim) did get away with humor.

Jodie Bostrom wrote: If you knew the details, it wouldn't be funny.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (that just may be the funniest thing you have ever posted), thanks for the laugh!

Dear mister Vernon, I try to get away but they "keep pulling me back". Al Pachino in the Godfather.

Dear Jodie, you have obviously bought the party line that a route got chopped because I talked Jim (my BFF) and Geir (my GFF) (PM me if you want to know what a GFF is) into chopping Scott Ayers chisel job on the Rockfellow Group. (still no written condemnation from you). Poor Scott is being personally attacked by Geir and me and my shadow Jimbo. Since I wasn't in favor of the chop you are saying that Jim and Geir convinced all the other people who wanted it chopped that it should be chopped. Lots of folks chimed in asking for the chop long before you got here.

If you had been a part of this from the beginning you would have seen that as stated above I was not in favor of the chop. I did point out that the chisel job was yet another example of one persons continued history of SAying one thing and doing another. I have seen it for 25 years.

As far as my biggest mistake, that would not be Crankenstein. Probably more like believing Scott Ayers when his mouth was moving regarding what his ethical stance was or responding to this thread.

Since you have brought it up twice I will tell you and everyone as I have from the beginning about Crankenstein.
Crankenstein is a route with about half a dozen enhanced holds and one completely chiseled hold. It is on a 50 foot crag 50 feet from the road in a climbing area where there are dozens of manufactured holds. In fact it isn't that far from some holds Scott Ayers manufactured/enhanced/altered. "Anything you can do with a screwdriver is not chiseling" right Scott! I created this climb and told everyone that it had some enhanced holds and that is why it is called Crankenstein. Word play on Frankenstein who was a monster created by a mad scientist, if you haven't seen the movie. Furthermore, I didn't chisel this after years of badmouthing Ray, Dan, Mike, and anyone else who created holds, as your favorite chipocrite did. So if you are saying I am a hypocrite, because of Crankenstein then you are wrong.

Am I bothered that 30 some chiseled holds were filled in and the bolts removed from a route in the stronghold? No.

I am a little disappointed that you have attacked me Jodie. I guess
you don't love my routes or Mt. Lemmon. I say that because it appears that if you do then you give folks a pass on their behavior.

"thanks scott for all the climbs you have put up in the stronghold! i love the stronghold. i love your routes (named or unnamed). the stronghold is my favorite place to climb, and i love your routes. again, THANK YOU!"

A lot of us love his routes Jodie. Geir and Jim love some of them too.

Jodie, please excuse me for responding but I have made a ton of references that will have my BFF and GFFs laughing their bad christian and non-christian heads off.

Jodie, I appreciate that you think you need to stick up for a grown man in his late 40s. By your reactions, and my own experience, he can be very convincing. Trust me I have sat in his house and listened to him for hours and been riled up enough that I thought of taking drastic actions, in hind sight I am now glad I didn't. I don't dislike you for trying to stick up for Scott, I think loyalty is a good thing. Unfortunately, history has shown that blind loyalty is not always a good thing.

My friendly advice is that the next time Scott is running at the mouth about how everyone is against him, tell him you don't want to hear it. Tell him to go deal with it himself. Scott is a victim of his own behavior not some personal problem I or anyone else has against him.

Take your friend Joe's advice as I really think you would be happier just going climbing and letting Scott, and Geir and I settle or not settle our differences ourselves.

With all sincerity, I wish you well. Eric

Funny stuff! I wonder if arizona climbers are using chaulk for these long threads?

Jodie,
The climbing community would love to hear the details.
Any time Scott wants to explain to us why he felt justified in chiseling 30 holds on the Rockafellow Dome, we would love to read it.

Maybe you, as his greatest fan, could convince him to come out of hiding on this issue.

We have chipping, chopping, Christianity, Islam, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, rivalries, egos, name calling, and socialized health care all rolled into one thread. Thanks for keeping me entertained on this slow Thursday morning SoAZ. :)

You're not using your Head, Mike.

That EFR guy, man, he can sure get riled up (or is that drilled).

Seriously, one thing you can always count on with Eric is that he'll tell it straight. If he does something you don't agree with, he won't obfuscate his actions, he'll own up and explain what he did.
You can disagree with his actions, but trying to call him out as hiding something is seriously funny for folks that know him.

That has been almost entertainting (if the original issue weren't so sad.)

Seriously folks, the RockAFellow domes used to be and I think to many (most?) climbers still are a very, very special place. Partly that was because if you got up some of the routes, you knew you had done something special (don't believe me, the 3 Sisters and As the Wind Cries are still there, as is Abra, Kneed Me, Pisgums, etc... (those last three are more accesible).

Eddie,
We try to please down here in Tucson. Great routes and great flame wars. All in a days work.

The sarcastic tone, belittling and condemning of others, and complete lack of respect of the majority of this thread is reproachable and disgusting. Not one thing can get accomplished through that kind of communication. It is nothing but a bad attempt at boosting one's own ego by putting others down and has absolutely no place in a respectable climbing community. If you are actually here to accomplish something, leave your ego out of it.

Kimberly,

All this as nothing to do with egos. If I see you kick a puppy and call you a mean spiteful bitch how is that boosting my ego?

This entire treads revolves around one person's unconscionable actions the reactions to his act.

The Jihad thing was just adding some humor to an otherwise F'd Up situation.

Those of us with actual skin in this debacle. The ones that spent an entire day jugging 600 feet of stone in gale force winds to clean up the mess do have a right to vent there frustrations. We chose the Jihad angle, and some people took offense unable to see the humor. Most didn't and came to our support. (Thanks everyone!)

Quite frankly I think a good heated argument actually gets things done better than a big group hug. My ego suffers no hurt when someone calls me out on this forum. I enjoy the fight. Again I say, if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen. Especially if you've never stepped up to cook a meal. (Which is indeed the case with several of the posters on this thread.)

If I hurt someones feelings responding to one of their posts they are the one with the fragile ego not me. I call it like I see it. I welcome all responses and point of views but if you want to chime in be prepared to defend your argument.

With a few exceptions I would gladly hold the rope for anyone I've been arguing with on this site. Jeepers I climb with Christians and Republicans and enjoy there company immensely in spite of our polar opposite views on some things.

A little lighthearted humor can be a great thing, but a full out attack on individuals, especially those who are not even part of the forum, is nothing but self serving. It's interesting that I never mentioned any names but you indicted yourself, so you must know that your comments are not productive. If you intend for this forum to be entertaining, which it indeed is, then keep on going about it the same way, but if you want to accomplish something, then you (meaning everyone) might want to start talking to everyone respectfully . Of course, we all need to be thick skinned and able to speak to each other frankly. That will move us forward. But many of these comments have gone far beyond that and it only serves to further one's own personal agenda or boost one's ego (thinking oh I'm so clever). In actuality, most people see right through it. Of course, those of you who deny that your actions are not based on ego when clearly you are acting out of spite will never own up to it unless you somehow have an epiphany of your own accord. No one's words are going to change your mind and I knew that when I made my last comment. Experts all over the place have done research on what makes for effective communication and if you look at it, not one of them says to be defensive, make fun of people, use sarcasm, take things out of context, sling shit, place blame, etc, etc...that kind of stuff makes people defensive and only creates a vicious loop of name calling. It WILL NOT accomplish anything.

Maybe I'm mistaken (not meant to be sarcastic here), but isn't the purpose of this thread here to discuss climbing etiquette? (Not to discuss just one person's actions because certainly we have all made mistakes and we all would like to come to at least a semblance of a consensus about etiquette in all of southern Arizona?)

And the truth is, those of you who took it upon yourself to fix that route did so of your own accord. No one asked you to do it. So take credit where it was due, but don't use your act of martyrdom as an excuse for behaving poorly. If you want to vent frustrations in that manner, a public forum may not be the best way to do that. Just sayin'

Well this one continues to entertain. I for one have no skin in the game but I will applaud those who have attempted to maintain a balance of old and new. I don't have a problem with certain areas having bolted sport routes. But it would be nice if some area's were left more trad. And I thought that the upper Stronghold was, guess I thought wrong.

As for this thread being all about etiquette I didn't see that from the beginning. Props to Scott M for trying to get people to discuss things in a civilized manor. But if you look at the title of this and the what's a local thread clearly these are not part of Scott's series. It's too bad that Scott's original series got hijacked.

As far as ego's go sure we all have one just like opinions, most climbers may have larger then normal ones though.

Oh and Jimbo I know you can take the heat so click here wikihow.com/Use-There,-Thei…
Just sayin'.

"Kimberly Creagan" wrote:And the truth is, those of you who took it upon yourself to fix that route did so of your own accord. No one asked you to do it. So take credit where it was due, but don't use your act of martyrdom as an excuse for behaving poorly. If you want to vent frustrations in that manner, a public forum may not be the best way to do that. Just sayin'

Hey Kim,

You are right that respectful talk would be best. Often these threads deteriorate into personal attacks; usually this happens because people on both sides of the issue contribute.

I was one of the people who took on the task of fixing the route. I don't want credit and I don't think Jim wants credit either. We did what we felt was right. Unfortunately people differ on what they feel is right, and become quite heated while (honorably, I think) defending their beliefs and their friends.

As for me I stand with Jim. Neither of us are perfect but we were up front about what we did and why we did it. We could have just as easily done it in secrecy. Nobody saw us up there and we could have simply denied it. Contrary to what some have flamed, the decision to be open was not based on ego. We did what we felt was right, knew we would take some lumps for it, and thank those who have been supportive.

With regards to the the costumes, if you happen to have had a genuine life experience involving terrorism, feel free to email me about it. The idea was mine. One person contacted me with a concern like this and I apologized to him. Most people seem to have interpreted the costumes and story the way we intended - as a joke. Jim and I will use the Fred and Barney costumes from now on.

Regards,
Geir

Jim and I will use the Fred and Barney costumes from now on. (I don't know how to format this to show that it was a previous statement by Geir).

That's pretty funny...lol.

And thank you for your thoughtful your response, Geir. While I may not agree with you about everything and the methods you took to chop the route, your last response is the kind of communication that will create a more constructive environment.

So, how about getting back to the subject now?

Specific routes and people aside, should we work on building a consensus on the etiquette of subtracting bolts in Southern Arizona? What are our thoughts on that in terms of how it should be done, when, what kind of community consensus needs to take place first, etc? (I'm probably forgetting things). Maybe we can all let bygones be bygones at this point in time and try to move forward.