what equipment is needed to start

I just got into climbing, so I can't really follow him. He already knows not to fall before the first clip, not to backclip or z-clip and all that. He's been climbing lead indoors since the age of 9 and he's been competing for 2 years. I don't want him to climb trad for now, sport will be good for a while, he is only 13.

Bob Packwood wrote: I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Maguire. What's with the obsession with formal instruction? Is it really that prevalent amongst the mp community? Pretty soon we'll hear folks agitating for mandatory instruction/certification or some other freedom-killing industry bullshit. What is with this instinct for formal instruction? Perhaps there is a feeling that climbers will eventually lose privileges without formal certified guided instruction for all noobs, due to the awful stupid accident trendline? That seems a reasonable fear, but it also sucks hard. Or perhaps since so many have taken professional instruction, and have been told during that instruction that it's really important to do it, we've reached a tipping point?

Did you miss the part about him being 13 years old?

-sp wrote: Did you miss the part about him being 13 years old?

This is a weak argument...I started flying gliders at 13 and soloed at 14.

Is he the type of kid who has common sense? Understands that when you clean an anchor you need to first secure yourself before you untie? Can he tie a figure 8 knot on the first try every time? If so, don't sweat it.

You really don't need to memorize some guide's specific series of actions in order to climb safe - being 13 doesn't mean you can't think for yourself.

Edit to required skills in last post:
-Tieing knots in the end of the rope before rappelling

Tyson Anderson wrote: Um...why not? I can't tell you how many little things I picked up from my mentor that I could not have learned from a book. True that sport climbing is much simpler than other forms of climbing but it can be just as disastrous if you make one mistake.

Don't take offense to this - I understand some people like being taught something instead of seeking out the solutions themselves; but You can also learn these things from just going out and practicing.

Save your money for shiny cams.

John Maguire wrote: Don't take offense to this - I understand some people like being taught something instead of seeking out the solutions themselves; but You can also learn these things from just going out and practicing. Save your money for shiny cams.

I completely agree that you "can" learn everything just by practicing instead of paying for instruction but there's also a cost/benefit factor here. I'm going to get flamed from the community here but I paid for training for basic and intermediate climbing, anchor building, leading, crack climbing, multipitch climbing and basic rescue. This sped my progress up immensely since I didn't have a dedicated partner while I was learning.

First caveat to this is I work long hours and have more money than time to climb. So determine what's important and pick a path.

Second caveat, I'm not a sport climber so maybe this is irrelevant.

Either path will work, pick one do great things and good luck to you.

John Maguire wrote: This is a weak argument...I started flying gliders at 13 and soloed at 14. Is he the type of kid who has common sense? Understands that when you clean an anchor you need to first secure yourself before you untie? Can he tie a figure 8 knot on the first try every time? If so, don't sweat it. You really don't need to memorize some guide's specific series of actions in order to climb safe - being 13 doesn't mean you can't think for yourself. Edit to required skills in last post: -Tieing knots in the end of the rope before rappelling

To "highly recommended NOT getting him any real instruction" is ill informed and reckless. I await your explanation to his mother when he proves not to be the exceptional 13-yo you were. Until then, I hope she has more sense than you.

The kids been gym climbing for 4 years, he could probably teach most of us a thing or two about sport climbing. I'm not saying throw him to the wind and hope he survives, but formal guide training for sport climbing? Are you crazy? Bob made a good distinction that there is a difference between guides and more experienced partners. I think that the former is the far more common approach to getting into sport climbing. I am curious as to what are the complexities you think require professional instruction?

Make sure he knows how to clean an anchor and how to rappel. Other than that, just go have fun.

EDIT: I was NO "exceptional 13-yo", hahaha... Kids that age are actually pretty intelligent...

Get a few books, a few emphasizing the actual climbing (as in moves and styles and such) and a few that have more on the types and hazards of rock, gear, anchors etc.

Also a good collection of guidebooks and one or two for pure inspiration.

At least one where bad things happen so the kid sees there are consequences.

I found that at that age reading about other's exploits really inspired my imagination and motivation to go out.

I understood "real instruction" as instruction from a person who knows what they are doing whether paid or not. I've never taken a "certified" climbing course and definitely don't think they are necessary to be a safe climber. All I was saying is that you can't expect to be a safe climber after reading a few books or perusing a forum.

experienced doesnt always mean safe ... ive seen experienced climbers set up a lower off a single non locking draw ... ive seen plenty of em do multipitch rappels without tying knot at the ends ... we wont even talk about helmets ...

there arent that many non-professional climbers that climb more than guides ... i bet theyve seen most of the mistakes people make with all the newbs they teach

the best reason to get a guide IMO is for the stuff they dont teach you in books ...

guides are there to teach you safety first ...

experienced partners, hopefully the same ... though some of those durty ole men probably are only looking forward to sharing that bivy with some young climbing flesh ...

oh and make sure you tip the guide ... it not like they are well paid, they do it because they love it

lol

John Maguire wrote: ...I'm not saying throw him to the wind and hope he survives, but formal guide training for sport climbing? Are you crazy? Bob made a good distinction that there is a difference between guides and more experienced partners. I think that the former is the far more common approach to getting into sport climbing. I am curious as to what are the complexities you think require professional instruction?

He only needs supervision by a mentor. Your original post made it sound like you didn't think he needed more than a book, and a mother who doesn't know anything about climbing shouldn't leave here with that impression.

I suggested that if he had the required skills including:

Safely Clipping
Not Falling before the First Bolt
Cleaning and Anchor
Rappelling

Than I thought he was ready to be out on his own. I still stand by this comment.

I think the guide mentality is fueled by those who are:

a) Guides themselves
b) Those who learned from guides and who feel they need to convince everyone that its the only acceptable practice. I think a lot of people are self conscious that others will judge them for not being willing to take on the responsibility of educating themselves independently. Rather than risk this, I think the mentality is often to justify it as the ONLY safe approach.

I can see the usefulness of guides on specific long alpine climbs or even perhaps when just getting into trad (certainly a mentor is helpful for both these disciplines). Paying for sport climbing instruction though seems kinda insane to me. The climbing itself can quite difficult but the logistics are not.

bearbreeder wrote:experienced doesnt always mean safe ... ive seen experienced climbers set up a lower off a single non locking draw ... ive seen plenty of em do multipitch rappels without tying knot at the ends ... we wont even talk about helmets ... there arent that many non-professional climbers that climb more than guides ... i bet theyve seen most of the mistakes people make with all the newbs they teach the best reason to get a guide IMO is for the stuff they dont teach you in books ... guides are there to teach you safety first ... experienced partners, hopefully the same ... though some of those durty ole men probably are only looking forward to sharing that bivy with some young climbing flesh ... oh and make sure you tip the guide ... it not like they are well paid, they do it because they love it lol

Sounds like personality type a - especially with the tipping comment.

Last year there was an accident in Boulder Canyon with a guide and a client (maybe on elephant buttresses? - I forget). Last week I set up my petzl reverso backwards after a completely exhausting climb on a day that I wasn't feeling super good. Everyone makes mistakes. Guides are no exception.

Type a personality? Lol

tipping someone for good service is just basic courtesy IMO

a lot of the guides have bern more places ive ever hoped to go .... IMO youre paying for the experience they can share you .... Not the stuff you can learn in a book

now an experienced person can show you how to do the basics as well ... Just be aware that any bad habbits they have youre likely to pick up as well ...

Accidents can happen anytime anywhere anyplace ... Thats life ...

Or we could all learn how to climb off This new fangled thing called the internets ... Lol

"type a" was a reference to my previous post: A guide himself

Anyways - I'm sure Kateri is long gone, and I think we covered this debate enough. Climb safe!

I just started sport climbing this past fall and all I started with was 10 quickdraws, a 60m rope, locking biner and atc. (not counting harness, shoes and chalk which I'm assuming he already has) I took my other gym experienced friend with me. Learned about back clipping, z-clipping, cleaning an anchor, and putting the spine to line, started on a 5.4 and have been going strong ever since. I wouldn't say you need a guide to get you started. Just pay attention to what you're doing, pick up stuff from watching others, and learn as you go.

I'm definitely going to go with a more experienced person when I start getting into trad and multi-pitch climbing though.