Qcc latest letter to congress about Oak Flat Land Swap

The "babble" is deafening.

kirra wrote:"an avid climber (or route setter) *does not* necessarily qualify you to make this decision. Your opinion, imo is a negative ball & chair to the future of the area -just the facts, flame away ~ ~ ~

I didn't say I was making any decisions. I stated my opinion of how things should be done and whom I support in making those decisions, which is the QCC. As someone who regularly utilizes, expands upon, and maintains the climbing in question, I undoubtedly qualified to do so. Just the facts.

What's a "negative ball & chair"?

Ben Beard wrote:kirra, maybe our standards for journalism and facts are not the same, or at least in the same ballpark. Most of your posts are just unsubstantiated ramblings akin to listening to Fox News. Also, you should come live in Superior and call the locals "suckers" sometime.

talk about ramblings -prove it. Pick a Post (any one of my posts) -and lets discuss it like rational folks here

Ben, I've been to Superior and done local support (and still do) How about you move forward with a blazing-new concept and be *specific* as requested

Ben Beard wrote:I hope to either join or otherwise support climbing in the area.

with a little knowledge -U2 could have respect to those with many years in the area that came before you

*note* -strange folks (we rarely hear from) and *new* mp.com memberships should start popping up about now *please note* they (you) will be ignored

edit add:

Geir Hundal wrote:What's a "negative ball & chair"?

yep very important question (couldn't this be sarcasm -naw impossible) :)~ Why don't you ask a relevant (and specific) question about the *current legislation* and what it will produce *if* it was alowed. The time spent on this conversation would be more productive if everyone stuck with *facts* and eliminated opinions

*fact* = subsidence could affect the Lower Devil's Cyn area too. Why don't we discuss that..?

cheers & have a great day

Ben Beard wrote:I heard a great quote from a BLM official, discussing energy resources on public lands, "The energy is where the energy is". Just an interesting quote that applies a bit to this situation, not really trying to prove a point or start anything.

Bruno Hegner (former GM of RCC) used to say much the same thing about copper--i.e., RCC has to mine under Oak Flat because that's where the copper is. Since this is apparent to them, it's a little difficult to understand why they don't realize that we also need to climb where the climbing happens to be.

Curt

The Climbing is where the Climbing is

piss, pissing war

Definition: An often vicious conflict in which combatants contend for dominance over certain territory.

kirra wrote:*fact* = subsidence could affect the Lower Devil's Cyn area too. Why don't we discuss that..? cheers & have a great day..!

Sure Kirra, I'll discuss that. Without asterisks or accusations or bold letters or sarcasm and flames from either of us. How about it?

Better yet: how about both of us commit right now to constuctive dialog with every other participant of this thread without flames or judgment or sarcasm or anything but the facts. What do you think?

To answer your question: My read of all the subsidence maps that I have seen indicates that lower devils lies outside of the subsidence zones. Kirra, QCC folks, Curt, and anyone else with access to the most updated map, is this still accurate? Please post an image if you are able.

[edit, forgot to fix typos, now done]

Red wrote:Pissing War noun piss, pissing war Definition: An often vicious conflict in which combatants contend for dominance over certain territory.

LMAO -
Insert Darth Vadar hiss...
"Your pitiful band of rebel forces are no match for the Dark Side!"

Words sound strong but you are not disclosing the overall picture to your audience.

The fight subject seems to be "the non-subsidence issue." RCM stated that they are going to mine the area if the surface subsides or not. They still are pushing for the land swap and want to obtain the land in their ownership. Once they have the ownership and mining production starts the climbing will be eliminated in the area for the next 60+ years to whenever they finish their underground explorations. So now we have an Oak Flat area that the mine can do whatever they want to the non-subsided land which does not belong to the Tonto National Forrest anymore. Once the mining is over, we are suddenly allowed to roam freely on their private property? Since it is their property will there even be a surface left or will it be plowed down over the years?

The problem with the Tamo area is that the present ASARCO mine that owns the Tamo road does not want pedestrians and miners sharing the same road. But once RCM owns the nonsubsided Oak Flat land they will let people run all over at will?.......hmmmm....probably not. I do not wish for the surface of Oak Flat to subside, but I am looking at the overall picture of what is going on, not keeping the focus only on the stance that I personally believe in.

I am on the QCC board because I want to get all the climbing I can for future climbers to enjoy. If Brent thinks that I am living in a fantasy, then so be it! There are no guarantees on the non-subsidence path, and there are no guarantees on the subsidence path. Which path do you choose? Since the fight for the mine is centered more around non-subsidence for the surface over the mine not happening at all, then it is a good bet that the mine will someday own the land.

Kirra? These are your words? "The QCC cannot operate productively without someone like Curt & the Access Fund in the mix". SO WHEN DID THE ACCESS FUND SAY THEY DO NOT SUPPORT THE QCC?

Rock on! Marty

This fight is FAR from over. Even though the QCC have thrown in the towel, it is very evident that they do not represent the climbing community in AZ or Nation Wide.

The REAL Big Players in this fight are not done with their efforts.

Q and A

Who is RCC?

Resolution Copper Company (RCC)—a wholly foreign-owned subsidiary

Who does not want RCC to mine?

Me

President Eisenhower - Public Land Order 1229

J. Napolitano

Arizona Mining Reform Coalition

Sierra Club

Maricopa Audubon Society

Access Fund

Savequeencreek.com

Arizona Mountaineering Club

American Indians

http://queencreekcoalition.com/meetingminutes/QCC_PublicMtg_Minutes_Apr_06_10.html
mining-law-reform.info/AZMR…
savequeencreek.com/

karabin museum wrote:Kirra? These are your words? "The QCC cannot operate productively without someone like Curt & the Access Fund in the mix". SO WHEN DID THE ACCESS FUND SAY THEY DO NOT SUPPORT THE QCC? Rock on! Marty

Since the QCC took its recent and ill-advised change in direction, I don't believe the Access Fund has publicly stated whether they still support the group or not. Hopefully, they will not.

Curt

MichaelClimbs wrote:This fight is FAR from over. Even though the QCC have thrown in the towel, it is very evident that they do not represent the climbing community in AZ or Nation Wide.

Michael-

I don't feel this way. The QCC still speaks for me, and it seems that a large percentage of those posting on this forum feel similarly.

Yet even if we tallied all these folks up it doesn't account for those who either haven't read this thread or haven't commented. It seems presumptive to say who speaks for the community without consulting them.

Geir Hundal wrote:The QCC still speaks for me, and it seems that a large percentage of those posting on this forum feel similarly. Yet even if we tallied all these folks up it doesn't account for those who either haven't read this thread or haven't commented. It seems presumptive to say who speaks for the community without consulting them.

That's a very good point. Since the QCC feels that it is still representing most climbers, yet most people I talk to feel differently, I'll go back to one of my original premises--which is that you can get whichever answer you want, simply depending on how you ask the question.

Curt

Marty said: "RCM stated that they are going to mine the area if the surface subsides or not. They still are pushing for the land swap and want to obtain the land in their ownership. Once they have the ownership and mining production starts the climbing will be eliminated in the area for the next 60+ years to whenever they finish their underground explorations." RCM has already stated there will be a hole the size of Meteor Crater where Oak Flat stands today. Climbing, walking, gathering acorns, everything else too, will be impossible on the surface.

Did I read correctly Marty? RCM is going to build us roads to thousands of boulders and climbing? As far as I recall I only heard a statement from David Salsbury that they could look into providing alternate access to Lower Devil's Canyon and they once promised to bulldoze a road to Tamo direct from Kearney. A road that would be maintained by nobody; probably be useless after a few rounds of monsoon storms. The road to Tamo wasn't even on the list last I read it.

A fellow climber and former miner in Superior tells me that the fracture zones in this volcanic area are so unpredictable, something he personally learned by experience, that the maps suggesting potential fracture zones will not reach Gaan Canyon (aka Devil's Canyon) or Apache Leap are pure speculation. Who do you think gave us those maps? Look at what happened in the block cave mine in San Manuel. The subsidence was far greater than the mine's predictions. What does it serve a mining company to actually be honest in the potential environmental harm, thus sinking their stated efforts to extract billions for their profit. If I owned RCM I'd produce tons of documents saying, it'll be fine, trust me.

I'll bet the folks of Louisiana and the southern coast would have liked a say in what a foreign company planned when it went looking for energy where it is.

I am a climber that wants the mine to go forward in a way we can all coexist. If the state makes money on taxes and a few folks from Superior are employed, wonderful. Is that a worthy trade-off? Is gaining access to some more climbing really worth the potential disaster this mine may turn out to be?

Well, that's certainly the best post in this thread so far.

Curt

Geir Hundal wrote: Michael- I don't feel this way. The QCC still speaks for me, and it seems that a large percentage of those posting on this forum feel similarly.

Geir, Queen Creek Coalition is dead - you just haven't realized it yet. Besides, a coalition is certainly not what it is. The vote of early May saw to that.

To keep its acronym, may I suggest Queen Creek Club.

Ben Beard wrote:BGBingham, I wouldn't take the Copper Country News as a reputable news source.

Ben if you look closely you'll notice it is a letter to the editor. It is not news.

I feel the need to talk once again about subsidence.

If the land trade goes through and RCM becomes owner of the Oak Flat land with a non subsidence mining method, RCM can plow the entire surface down to a parking lot and this will still be considered non subsidence. There will be no climbing, recreating or acorn collecting on their property unless RCM allows it.

Is there any agreements stating that when RCM is finished mining the land that they will allow pedestrian use again on their private property?

The old Magma Mine allowed climbing on the land since the climbing is located in the Tonto National Forest. So take away the Tonto National Forest land and now turn it into private mining land and what do you think will happen in the long run. How fast do you think the fence will go up around RCMs property?

I think if you wanted to keep what is there now climbers should have been fighting for the mine not to happen. Fighting for non subsidence still gets the surface destroyed and gets the pedestrian use eliminated from the area.

The QCC has signed no paperwork, no endorsements and the process to reach that signature could take a long time. The QCC is working off of QCCs list of concerns paperwork, which was created by all of the QCC members, past and present.

Rock on!

Marty

^^^^^

Normally I don't like to engage with the masses since I occupy such a lofty position, but I really can't stomach boulderer's. They are all rift raft and rather coarse. They shouldn't be listened to as they will pervert your mind. Evil I say. Now, let me line out my wisdom for all of you.

My thoughts are perfectly logical and follow from one simple thing. It is in your best interest because as everyone knows, climbers really, at root, are sycophants. Forget all you've heard of their independent drive to do the impossible. They really like mucking around for crumbs.

Back to that one simple thing - the mine is going to happen and they will cave the surface. Now, tell yourself this five or six times a day while looking upward in supplication and dream about all the wonderful things that will flow your way if only you get in there and deal. Master of the Universe style.

Oh, and forget the meaning of "coalition". It has nothing to do with what you think.

Rick,

Absolutely brilliant post. Thank you.

It was especially interesting to read the history which has lead to this current point, particularly that the Access Fund itself endorsed the legislation in 2006.

I am truly happy that you're with the QCC.

QCC folks: please continue to move forward to secure as much climbing as possible. You guys are doing an awesome job under very challenging circumstances, thank you all for your efforts.