Qcc latest letter to congress about Oak Flat Land Swap

I havent given up - I think with a working relationship and Solid legal counsel - we can accomplish the goal that is so necessary to the economy of the state and the people of Superior AND create a livable climbing space for us AND with proper legal counsel IN WRITING - secure our rights to Tamo and appropriate funding. Are we gonna lose something - Yes. But I would rather lose something in the effort to gain than simply strike out against them continually and get nothing. if you are of the mind that your fighting will hold off the efforts of the mine in this failing economy - then I would love to hear how you plan on re attacking this. Your comparing the introduction of a mining operation that will bring billions to the state - against a group of climbers that contribute a drop in the bucket in their eyes.
I support the ethics of the environment first option - You could say I'm a conservationist climber. But Im also a realist.
Damned obviously either way in this scenario

curt, you seem to be completely unaware of my reason for commenting on your post. i am simply tired of your unconstructive remarks directed at the qcc, and i really would like it if you'd stop.

Curt Shannon wrote:It is simply impossible to claim that you don't want to see Oak Flat destroyed and at the same time be an advocate for the passage of the legislation that will lead directly to its eventual destruction.

well guess what, hell just froze over. none of the folks on the qcc want to see oak flat to be destroyed. but the majority of them agree that the best plan for climbers is to pursue the most net climbing, which will likely require our endorsement.

TDog wrote: Par for the Course. I want to fight to the end. I haven't given up. I support all the others that want to fight. Down with the mine and DESTROYING a federally protected area. It was protected 50 years ago and needs to be protected for 5000 more. I wrote ALL my representatives. McCain disagrees. Other routes must be taken. "It is the duty of the Patriot to protect his country from his government". And big business!!!!

Your right - As a citizen of this great state - I am very well aware of issues that are affecting the state and have supported many that have brought me heat. I agree. But this "big business" is also BIG BUSINESS for a struggling economy of Superior. They don't see the capital that the other cities to the West of them are granted and frankly - most are families that have been exposed to , or have mining in their history. Its that simple. Until you start putting food on their table as a climbing community... you dont measure up the dollars that are contributed through the efforts of RCC to maintain the mine.
Its just that simple. Its not that legislature is purposefully segregating the Queen Creek area... its a prosperous venture in the states mind - vs a room full of climbers and conservationist's that cant seem to gather themselves to agree on anything related to the cause.
What we are here to do is raise awareness to the impact that the mine will have on our community - which ranges in the hundreds, the impact that the mine will have ecologically to the area in the next twenty years and make sure that they provide APPROPRIATE compensation to everyone involved. Do you disagree?
Do you honestly think they are going to scrap a 4 billion dollar project because you disagree?

Now I realize that last comment will get me flamed ... but trust me - I have examined every angle in this regard and assisted where I could... so be honest but understand that when the gun is pointed in your face ... Being the hero sometimes is not logical.

Geir Hundal wrote:curt, you seem to be completely unaware of my reason for commenting on your post. i am simply tired of your unconstructive remarks directed at the qcc, and i really would like it if you'd stop...

I'm sorry that you view comments from any point of view other than your own as "unconstructive." Since I believe the QCC has blundered in an epic fashion, it's pretty unlikely I will stop commenting. As an alternative, why don't you stop reading my posts?

Curt

Curt Shannon wrote: I'm sorry that you view comments from any point of view other than your own as "unconstructive." Since I believe the QCC has blundered in an epic fashion, it's pretty unlikely I will stop commenting. As an alternative, why don't you stop reading my posts? Curt

Curt,

Again, you are misrepresenting me. You infer that I view all differing opinions as unconstructive. This is untrue. From now on, perhaps you can speak for the only person who you are truly an authority on - yourself.

Moreover, I didn't ask you to stop commenting; I only ask that you stop the personal attacks on the members of the QCC. You will note that I am not the only one who is suggesting this.

Curt,

All the work you have done for the QCC has been amazing.
Nothing has been signed with the mine nor agreed on, and I am sure this process will take some time if it happens.

I do not like the person that you have become, you do not sound very professional as you hastily cast stones at your friends.

I love Queen Creek! I think that my book on Queen Creek reflects my love for the area. I am not wanting to destroy the area, but actually capture more of what Queen Creek has for climbers.

Standing in front of a bulldozer while waving a middle finger at it is honorable yes, but possibly working with the "monster" who can provide mountains of new opportunities for climbers may be a better way.

New opportunities meaning = Creating roads to thousands of new routes and boulder problems.

Queen Creek Rocks!

Marty

karabin museum wrote:Curt, All the work you have done for the QCC has been amazing. Nothing has been signed with the mine nor agreed on, and I am sure this process will take some time if it happens. I do not like the person that you have become, you do not sound very professional as you hastily cast stones at your friends. I love Queen Creek! I think that my book on Queen Creek reflects my love for the area. I am not wanting to destroy the area, but actually capture more of what Queen Creek has for climbers. Standing in front of a bulldozer while waving a middle finger at it is honorable yes, but possibly working with the "monster" who can provide mountains of new opportunities for climbers may be a better way. New opportunities meaning = Creating roads to thousands of new routes and boulder problems. Queen Creek Rocks! Marty

Marty,

I didn't mean you any personal disrespect and I hope you realize that. I am not casting stones at my friends--I am merely being critical of one recent decision made by them that I think is very wrong. In doing this, I have only pointed out the obvious--that it is impossible to both endorse the current RCM legislation (now a stated QCC goal) and at the same time claim that you want to preserve climbing at Oak Flat/Queen Creek. I'm truly sorry that things have come to this.

Curt

Geir Hundal wrote: Curt, Again, you are misrepresenting me. You infer that I view all differing opinions as unconstructive. This is untrue. From now on, perhaps you can speak for the only person who you are truly an authority on - yourself.

And, perhaps you can speak only on topics with which you have intimate first hand knowledge. The RCM land exchange, by the way, isn't one of those topics.

Curt

Curt Shannon wrote: And, perhaps you can speak only on topics with which you have intimate first hand knowledge. The RCM land exchange, by the way, isn't one of those topics. Curt

A third time you're twisting my words. I didn't ask you to speak only to specific topics, I asked you not to speak for me. And I have no doubt you know to tremendous depths the land exchange legislation. Consequently, I am very sad that the QCC has lost you as a result.

Curt Shannon wrote: Marty, I didn't mean you any personal disrespect and I hope you realize that. I am not casting stones at my friends--I am merely being critical of one recent decision made by them that I think is very wrong. In doing this, I have only pointed out the obvious--that it is impossible to both endorse the current RCM legislation (now a stated QCC goal) and at the same time claim that you want to preserve climbing at Oak Flat/Queen Creek. I'm truly sorry that things have come to this. Curt

Finally, some intelligent discourse and not casting stones at the QCC. That's all I wanted. Thanks, Curt.

Thanks, Geir. Sometimes (often) discussions get twisted around on the internet. I never intended to offend anyone.

Curt

karabin museum wrote:Standing in front of a bulldozer while waving a middle finger at it is honorable yes, but possibly working with the "monster" who can provide mountains of new opportunities for climbers may be a better way. New opportunities meaning = Creating roads to thousands of new routes and boulder problems. Queen Creek Rocks! Marty

Marty, I can't believe you wrote this. Fantasy.

Geir Hundal wrote: I agree with CJD and Shiloh. I'm pretty tired of your unconstructive comments, please stop it.

Geir Hundal wrote:it's just not the mission of the qcc.

Geir, QCC no longer represents climbers. It represents a group of people who happen to climb and want to suckle from the tit of a big mining company.

B

Elder Speaks Out Against Resolution Copper Project
Copper Country News June 2, 2010

“If ever there were an example of Native American and environmental disrespect, it's the Resolution Copper Company's proposed Oak Flat USFS land swap sponsored by Representative Kirkpatrick and Senator McCain. The web reveals in spades the horrendous harm Resolution;s two foreign mooning partner's, Rio Tinto and BHP, have inflicted upon Native Peoples and the environment worldwide.

After years of secrecy and attempts to evade US human rights and environmental law, Resolution's website recently admitted they will create a gigantic Arizona meteor crater-sized hole a mile across and deeper than the Empire State Building is high!

Our sacred sites, Apache Leap. Gaan Canyon, Oak Flat's acorns etc., would be obliterated, dewatered or isolated. Resolution conceded their 7000 foot deep mine will suck dry the entire region's table water.

They will annually import as much Colorado River CAP water as a city of 175,000.

Kirkpatrick and McCain have worked feverishy in Congress to give Resolution exemptions from US cultural, human rights, environmental and historical protection law.

Rio Tinto and BHP concede their mine's toxic wastes will be a gigantic mass the size of Picket Post Mountain.

They say they will dump these poisons at BHP's nearby Pinto Creek Mine, twice BHP ruptured their waster levees (1993, 1997) spilling poisonous heavy metals into Pinto Creek which flows into Roosevelt Reservoir, Phoenix's drinking water. By sheer good fortune, BHP bulldozed emergency levees both times and saved Phoenix.

Sincerely,
Dolores Jordan, Tribal Elder
San Carlos Apache

Shiloh wrote: But this "big business" is also BIG BUSINESS for a struggling economy of Superior.

Shiloh, you make some very rational, realistic remarks about the impacts to the "stakeholders" of the Resolution project. One very important stakeholder being the families of Superior.
Although I'm new to the area (climbing and living), I'd like to voice my support for QCC and their plans. I believe they are planning ahead for where their children and grandchildren can climb in the future.

BGBingham, I wouldn't take the Copper Country News as a reputable news source.

Curt Shannon wrote:Thanks, Geir. Sometimes (often) discussions get twisted around on the internet. I never intended to offend anyone. Curt

You are very welcome, thanks to you too Curt.

Regards,
Geir

Marty -you should not have voted the way you did. Voting to support this legislation (as it is right now) will simply *destroy* the area, forever (you've been fed hogwash otherwise, ha) Curt is right this is not a personal attack -just the facts from someone who should know and imo, has no need to eat crow here

that 5% of the QCC, that recently turned tail (apple that went bad) is not operating on a solid foundation of facts (as this thread has shown) It was important to root them out from their covert activity as this is a matter concerning the future of all climbers in this public area. The QCC cannot operate productively without someone like Curt & the Access Fund in the mix, imo

BGBingham wrote:Marty, I can't believe you wrote this. Fantasy. Geir, QCC no longer represents climbers. It represents a group of people who happen to climb and want to suckle from the tit of a big mining company

Brent, no one could have said it better

lots of folks wrote:I only ask that you stop the personal attacks on the members of the QCC.

funny how there has always been the tendency here (with this topic) for folks to take the *facts* presented as *something personal* -how strange...?!?!?

Ben Beard wrote:I'd like to voice my support for QCC and their plans. I believe they are planning ahead for where their children and grandchildren can climb in the future. BGBingham, I wouldn't take the Copper Country News as a reputable news source.

+1 sucker to the town of superior. BTW, the Copper Country News, a local paper tends to have more *honest reporting* than the larger AZ Republic etc. who have all been bought off by RCM

Perhaps not many have heard about Sen.McCain trying to divert $$$ in congress headed for the San Carlos tribes (social services, school-hospital etc) in a futile attempt to blackmail Chairman Noise

Shiloh, you have many good ideas and questions that would make for a good discussion (call me anytime..:)

BGBingham wrote:Geir, QCC no longer represents climbers. It represents a group of people who happen to climb and want to suckle from the tit of a big mining company.

You are entitled to your opinion.

As an extremely avid climber who spends a large amount of time climbing and developing routes in Queen Creek, I think the QCC is headed in the right direction and they have my full support.

I have witnessed firsthand the benefits of RCC's presence already. One example of this is that they have massively improved access to Lower Devil's Canyon by keeping the road in good repair. As a result the number of people climbing in Lower Devil's has increased significantly.

I believe that the legislation will eventually pass with or without the support of climbers. The prudent thing to do, therefore, is to try to work with RCC to keep what we can. The QCC is made up of smart, dedicated, invested people - every one of them. I trust them to get the job done.

x2 to Ben's thoughts on the Copper County News

Ben Beard wrote: Shiloh, you make some very rational, realistic remarks about the impacts to the "stakeholders" of the Resolution project. One very important stakeholder being the families of Superior. Although I'm new to the area (climbing and living), I'd like to voice my support for QCC and their plans. I believe they are planning ahead for where their children and grandchildren can climb in the future. BGBingham, I wouldn't take the Copper Country News as a reputable news source.

That's awesome that you can see both sides of the fence - Its taken me a while to be able to do that. I would have rather stood in front of the bulldozer through my younger years... now that I am getting older - I see the value in optimizing a working relationship, firming up our requirements with legal backing and commanding that they process the appropriate environmental impact surveys to determine how to minimize their impact on the surrounding area. I think QCC has done an excellent job over the years of raising awareness and accountability in this regard and I support further efforts to secure climbing for my future generations.

"The QCC no longer represents climbers. It represents a group of people who happen to climb and want to suckle from the tit of a big mining company"

Geir Hundal wrote:You are entitled to your opinion.

ur getting your facts & opinions mixed up again (many people do) Folks like you are *dangerous* to our future environmental & community planning process (littl'bit o'knowledge can be dangerous in the wrong hands)

an avid climber (or route setter) *does not* necessarily qualify you to make this decision. Your opinion, imo is a negative ball & chair to the future of the area -just the facts, flame away ~ ~ ~

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Shiloh, learn more (ask more) least ye be wrong.. :)

kirra, maybe our standards for journalism and facts are not the same, or at least in the same ballpark. Most of your posts are just unsubstantiated ramblings, akin to listening to Fox News. Also, you should come live in Superior and call the locals "suckers" sometime. Great way to get local support.

I heard a great quote from a BLM official, discussing energy resources on public lands, "The energy is where the energy is". Just an interesting quote that applies a bit to this situation, not really trying to prove a point or start anything.

All the best to QCC, I hope to either join or otherwise support climbing in the area. Say what you will Kirra, but I am not going to get tangled into it. I'll spend my time out on the rock.