Bolting Mixed Lines at Lincoln

My partner and I are thinking about bolting a M6/7ish line up at Lincoln. I am curious about your opinions on this, and the general topic of more bolted mixed lines up there.

maybe post a photo with the line described.
that way everyone could give the honest opinion.

Daniel,
"I am curious about your opinions on this" Think for yourself. Ask others for their bolting criteria, not their opinions. Otherwise you just get democratic bolts (or not). Maybe we can give each other ways to think about the question of bolting, but we can't tell you whether or not to place the bolt. All climbing is anarchy -Scott Backes

Is there a reason you need to place bolts? Think about this beyond the obvious answers.
"I must bolt because I don't want to die/get hurt if I fall" Can you toprope the line?
"I don't want to toprope, I want to lead" What's so great about leading? Is that really the challenge you want for yourself? I'm not looking to judge, just hoping you have a serious answer for yourself since you are the one for whom your climbing accomplishments matter the most.
"The gear is crappy and M6/7 is about my limit so there's a good chance I could fall." Plenty of M6/M7 has been done ground up, onsight and boltless so while you may "need" bolts, the climb itself does not. It is never a necessity to place a bolt, always a choice...and a statement. By bolting the climb you are saying to everyone that comes after you (not just the "average climber") that this climb (and other climbs like it, depending on your bolting criteria) should have bolt protection, regardless of the abilities of future climbers or the type of experience they are looking for.
"I really want to lead a climb I equipped to show people my vision of Lincoln M6/7" Recognition is great, but don't get attached to some potential future where you broke new ground, made an FA, created an opportunity for others. Instead of looking to others for recognition and validation, look within for the growth that occurs when you encounter a challenge at the right level for you. While you're out looking for an experience that brings the clarity of full concentration in the moment along with growth through pushing yourself past your own self-perceived limits, don't forget that you are also making a statement. Decide what sort of example you want to set for other climbers so that they too encounter their challenges in a way that allows them to grow and progress. I personally think blase` bolting removes this opportunity for others to fashion their own adventure. You decide for yourself. There are plenty of climbers who gave everyone the finger and decided that bolting was their right and the right thing to do. You just think about it and then make up your own mind.

Hamish, Wow man you said a mouth full! Regardless of my motivation, my mind is made up on what I want to do. The key word being “want”. We don’t always do what we want. If it were up to me I would bolt as many mixed climbs that could not be protected naturally as possible at Lincoln. But since Lincoln is not my private crag, I thought that it might be courteous to get the opinion of others who might be affected positively or negatively.

At the end of the day I expected there to be opinions from both ends, thus leaving me and my partner to decide for ourselves anyway. Nor did I ask for an up or down vote. I did not expect some one to tell me to think for myself. It troubles me to think that if a person asks the opinion of others (on a forums thread) that someone else might think that they are un-thinking or lacking in original thought.

Daniel, you probably know that Lincoln has been climbed a lot. Some may not welcome retrobolting established lines (TR or runout). So, be careful if it is not a new line.

Hamish Gowans wrote:Decide what sort of example you want to set for other climbers

I think that truly and well says it all. And is widely applicable beyond bolting questions and perhaps beyond climbing. And is something I wish people did more.

Or maybe Bill and Ted said it best:
"Be excellent to each other."

Jerome

Amen to what Hamish and Doug said. I'm all for bolting something that well and truly needs it, but make damned sure it needs it first. Unless you're positive you're the FA, I wouldn't go breaking out the drill quite yet. But kudos for "asking first".

Let's have a picture or two and see if it looks familiar to anyone.

As soon as I can I will get some pics up. Hopefully within the next couple of days.

Daniel,

I climb there a bunch, though I'm no one to say what lines can/can't be worked with.

The problem with the area is that it fills in with ice a great deal; so bolting for the most part is a waste. However, I think you're looking at one of a couple of the mixed lines that dry tool on TR with maybe an exit move of ice.

I have an idea what lines you're thinking, I TR'd partway up what we thought was M8 and would not even think about trying to lead it without fixed pro (far right of the upper right WI4 pillar & right of the natural seam that gets iced; I'd have to show it to you when it gets just a little splatter to make it work; truly every move was harder & harder, just what you want).

The dihedral on the lower right goes at about that M5/6 advanced grade on the exit move -- I think though that it can be pinned. I had it almost dialed last year; I've not yet seen a lead on it. I would not like to see this bolted unless pins just won't work.

Overall if you bolt or not decision; you may be bringing some good leads -- though, probably everyone will look at it as retrobolting even though everything at that grade is TR'd up there. You're looking at expert grade lead climbs and trying to bring them to the fold & I think that's a good point. I know how hard you climb & I know you're thinking of improving the experience of the climbs at a level you just can't get to on TR.

Here is a rudimentary pic of the route. It lies on the slight overhang between the right main flow and sickle on a stick. I don't think it could be protected with pins. The seams that are there are quite thin. But maybe someone with nailing experience would disagree.

Daniel, I guess one of my questions would be... if this area ever forms up as a curtain, does bolting it mean that it may never form as a curtain again (because of folks mixed-climbing it before it forms up)?

Just some food for thought, as folks have frequently debated the merits of 'waiting for the curtains to fully form' before climbing them at Lincoln.

I have never seen this curtain touch. The closest I have ever seen it was a good five feet from touching.

Yes, I think this is a 'tweener.

The curtain fills in more to the climber's right -- the main deal is keeping the pillar in. The Sickle is fickle at best and would be a solo on lead; I've only seen it TR'd. Neither of which would be affected by fixing & mixing the overhang.

Just to the right of the fat WI4 pillar in your pic, Daniel, is another mixed line that sometimes shows a gear seam; then to the right again is that insane overhanging thin & non-positive section I tried & got spanked on. But I did well on it, for me (with leashes, too!).

In any respect, I can see the purpose on this about looking to better protect with a lead than the TR & nobody really does climb that section, I'd say go for it.

Daniel wrote:My partner and I are thinking about bolting a M6/7ish line up at Lincoln. I am curious about your opinions on this, and the general topic of more bolted mixed lines up there.

Daniel,

I don't particularly have a problem with it as long as the rock is not distroyed or altered at all in the process. Be careful and thanks for asking.

Josh

Independent of my thoughts or beliefs, you should be aware that the local climbers may not take too kindly to bolting an alpine climbing area. Do what you and your partners feel is necessary and I do appreciate the respect that you are giving by even posing the question. But, please understand that the real question is whether you and your partner - or even the impact of the area - are willing to endure any of the potential issues that will arise from bolting something that you want the ability to climb in a certain manner?

Thanks Elizabeth, I don't understand how Lincoln could be considered an alpine climbing area. The bolted anchors (that I assume were not put in by the locals you are referring to)have more top-rope traffic than an average climbing gym. I really don't know the criteria for an alpine climbing are, but I personally would not consider Lincoln to be one. I would consider Lincoln an Ice/Mixed Crag.
On a side note. Does anyone have info on topos for Lincoln or more detailed route listings? My main concern is that this route has already been given a name.

Lincoln, come on your making it sound like it's Vail. That place is good for climbing about 6 weeks a year depending on snow fall. When there is a big dump that place fills in with snow and is all but forgotten till the next fall season.

As for bolting there if you want to waste your time and money to "put up a route" there have a blast.

And for "well the locals may object" Just look around at all the left behind mining garbage.....a few small bolts in the rock, come on people..

I just wanted to add that having TR'd the route with Dan last weekend I can say it definitely is a route worth bolting. It is an aesthetic fun M7ish line (it is definitely harder than than supposedly M7 face/crack line right of the curtain in the pic) that would be great for leading due to its overhanging nature. It also would be impossible to safely (or unsafely for that matter) to protect with gear. Like Dan has said, the main concern whether this line has been given a name. On an ancillary note, I second the wish for a topo if only to see if the M7 line I spoke of is actually listed at M7.