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GriGri 2 vs. Trango Cinch
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By bearbreeder
Jan 18, 2011
xrtrady1 wrote:
My take is this- My friend was involved in a rescue at The Dark Side crag in The Red River Gorge. The belayer was using a Cinch, correctly threaded, when the climb took the fall and decked. The belayer had rope burns in hands and the cinch didnt catch. I would not advise this but know the Gri Gri will catch a fall without holding the rope at all. The climber died in ICU. You make the choice. Or wait on the Gri Gri 2



hi

could you give more details on this, or any articles/time frame ... this is the first ive heard of it

thanks!

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By Chris Plesko
From Westminster, CO
Jan 18, 2011
OMG, I winz!!!
xrtrady1 wrote:
My take is this- My friend was involved in a rescue at The Dark Side crag in The Red River Gorge. The belayer was using a Cinch, correctly threaded, when the climb took the fall and decked. The belayer had rope burns in hands and the cinch didnt catch. I would not advise this but know the Gri Gri will catch a fall without holding the rope at all. The climber died in ICU. You make the choice. Or wait on the Gri Gri 2


The information above is by far too incomplete to make any judgement on the situation or the cinch. I have my speculation but I'm sure the belayer feels bad enough already.

Grigri's can still not catch if you're not holding the rope. With the Cinch, it's even easier to never let go with your brake hand nor pinch the cam shut as many do on the grigri. You don't take your break hand of an ATC and expect it to work do you?

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By Chris Tan
Jan 22, 2011
Re: the cinch not catching.

I've been guilty of letting my partner fall too far on lead due to inattention. Thankfully he was far enough up that there were no injuries, but since then I've been careful to change my technique according to the Youtube video.

The cinch does auto-catch, but if you are holding it open to feed rope to your leader, then rope can easily slip through, especially if you are standing directly below the first draw. You need a bit of friction to trigger the auto-lock mechanism or at least be standing at an angle such that the rope would pull it shut.

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By Chris Plesko
From Westminster, CO
Jan 22, 2011
OMG, I winz!!!
Chris Tan wrote:
but if you are holding it open to feed rope to your leader, then rope can easily slip through


Why are you doing this?

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By Justin Brunson
From Broomfield CO
Jan 22, 2011
looks like you can preorder the gg2 on mountain gear. doesn't ship til feb 10th though.

mountaingear.com/pages/product...

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By bradyk
Jan 22, 2011
I had belayed with the Cinch for almost a year, caught many lead falls without a problem. Would have recommended it to my grandma. I always kept my hand on the break. One day my buddy took a lead fall on slab and as I was expecting to be pulled up a little bit like normal. Instead the rope started flying through the cinch making an awful zzzzz sound. It burned my hand pretty bad and luckily he was sixty feet up. He took a 30 ft. fall when it should have been 7-10 ft. tops.

On the other hand, I hate it when people belay with the gri-gri improperly. Example: While leader is clipping, the belayer grabs cam on gri-gri with their break hand and throws some slack out.

Fact:The gri-gri catches falls automatically much better than the cinch.

I only use an ATC now.

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By CrazyEnigma
Mar 15, 2011
I like my Cinch, and I can see why people have problems with pinching the device to pay out slack. I didn't understand why you needed to do this (which is very incorrect practice), until I figured that if you twisted the Cinch 90 degrees and down that the rope will feed itself. When a load is applied, the cinch will be brought up towards the load and the Cinch will pinch the rope. Pinching the device will render the device useless, and you might as well use an ATC at this point.

However, you should not be belaying if you are not paying attention to what the climber is doing. I certainly don't want that kind of person belaying me if my life depended on it.

Any kind of auto-assist device can never replace good belay technique and attention.

I agree with those who say that ye-olde ATC or ATC Guide are the best beginner's device to belay on.

On cost, in Canada they are all ~ the same price at MEC. $87: Cinch, $88 GriGri, $89 GriGri 2.

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By shotwell
Mar 15, 2011
bearbreeder wrote:
hi could you give more details on this, or any articles/time frame ... this is the first ive heard of it thanks!


The Darkside accident has some information available at rockclimbing.com

FYI, the accident was clear operator error. No reason not to buy a Cinch. I was part of the rescue and own a Cinch. That being said, I prefer my GriGri2.

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By Mojo Stylee
From Ft. Collins, CO
Mar 15, 2011
My Bling!
Where is this info? I am having a hard time searching it down?

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By shotwell
Mar 15, 2011
Mojo Stylee wrote:
Where is this info? I am having a hard time searching it down?


rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum...

rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum...

These two threads cover it if my memory serves. As usual for RC, you'll have to separate the wheat from the chaff. I'm really not interested in dredging up the emotions by reading through and picking out the relevant posts, sorry.

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By redlude97
Mar 15, 2011
xrtrady1 wrote:
My take is this- My friend was involved in a rescue at The Dark Side crag in The Red River Gorge. The belayer was using a Cinch, correctly threaded, when the climb took the fall and decked. The belayer had rope burns in hands and the cinch didnt catch. I would not advise this but know the Gri Gri will catch a fall without holding the rope at all. The climber died in ICU. You make the choice. Or wait on the Gri Gri 2

This a clear misinterpretation of the causes of the accident. The device was not at fault. A cinch also holds a fall without holding the rope at all(even thought it is not recommended). The climber decked because of belayer error, which could have happened with any device.

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By Nikolai Daiss-Fechner
From Boulder, CO
Mar 15, 2011
Bouldering at Bishop
Having used a cinch in the past, and having gotten the opportunity recently to use a grigri2, I must say go with the gri gri. From someone who has always used the original Grigri, it is a very simple and intuitive transition. It is easy to feed slack and easy to catch. The thing is designed to be used with the "new" belay method, and does so better than any device I have used. The Cinch always felt awkward to me, even after practice. I always felt like I needed to fiddle with it to get it to feed slack... not good. My default was to either go back to the Grigri, or to use a tube style device. However, my partner's new GG2 is instantly my new favorite. Hands down the most intuitive device I have ever used. And for someone who has always used the "old" belay method on a grigri, it was no problem switching to the new one... something i resisted before.

That said... steap and cheap had GriGri 1 for $50! Pretty good deal...

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By CrazyEnigma
Mar 25, 2011
Just was observing most of the people on lead belay at my gym (including kids) on the Gri Gri using very bad technique and developing bad habits. Was it my eyes, or is this the new technique that I didn't know about?

Holding the cam and paying out slack in all situations. I certainly don't want anyone one of those belayers when I am lead climbing.

You should be able to pay out slack without holding the cam.

Learn on a tube first, before using an auto-assist device, and practice looping the rope at the gym and paying out slack with the device before lead belaying anyone.

Just tested the GriGri2 and I'm sticking with the Cinch. I find the GG2 more sticky than the GG. No wonder people hold the cam down.

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By Alex g
Mar 31, 2011
I've been lead belaying for around 4 years I personally love the regular gri gri and I am not a fan of the cinch. The new gri gri2 has a smaller drum so I would just warn you that when letting some one down more than 40 ft then your gri gri2 will burn you if you touch it. If I was you just by a plain reliable gri gri it Worked the past 15 years why change now?

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By Patrick Feeney
From hartland vt
Mar 31, 2011
dont know if this helps but the girgi 2 IS out,and i got one last week.

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By Alex g
Mar 31, 2011
Patrick Feeney wrote:
dont know if this helps but the girgi 2 IS out,and i got one last week.

I bet it gets pretty hot after letting your climber down

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By shotwell
Mar 31, 2011
Alex g wrote:
I bet it gets pretty hot after letting your climber down


I don't know where you're getting that info, but it seems to be off. I climb in the Red frequently with a GG2. Neither my partner or I find the GG2 to be too hot when lowering off routes 40-100 feet in length.

FYI, devices WILL heat up on longer lowers. Saying that the GG2 gets abnormally hot has not been my experience. Maybe you ought not to lower your partner so fast?

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By Sam Stephens
Mar 31, 2011
Top half of Melifluous
I'm a religious Cinch user. That being said, I belayed on a Grigri for a long time and I also believe in giving everything a fair chance.

I got a chance to play with a co-workers at the gym the other night. To me it feels just the same as the previous generation as far as feeding is concerned. It does lower a little smoother thanks to the two stage handle. I think the biggest benefit of the new Grigri is the rope diameters that it's rated to handle now.

I still prefer my Cinch for a couple of reasons, and they're entirely personal. I like it better because it's smaller and more compact. I like the simplicity in it's design. I like it better than a Grigri for bringing up a second. I like it better then a Grigri for setting up an emergency pulley system or for setting up a tensioned line with a pulley system.

I like feeding slack to the leader better because unlike the Grigri, you're still not overriding the camming mechanism open to feed rope. I know, you hold the Cinch in the open position to feed rope as well, the difference is that the top plate is still entirely free to rotate so it's not being forcefully held in the open position.

I also like it in the weird way that it makes me stay in my safety checking routine. Because I know it won't work backwards at all unlike the Grigri, it keeps me in my routine of checking to make sure it's loaded correctly. Every time I load it I give the climbers strand a sharp yank. Every time my belayer loads it, I give the climber strand a yank. And it keeps me checking my knots and harnesses while I'm checking to make sure it's functioning correctly.

Some of my preferences are more personal than others and some are more use based. None the less, I'll be sticking with my Cinch. I don't think either device has enough over the other to merit picking one based on usability or function alone.

Both need to be learned properly and understood fully. It really is important. It's easy to go out to the crag and see someone grabbing the Grigri and throwing out slack, but that's not the proper way to use it. Same goes for the Cinch. You have to understand how to use it properly in feeding, braking, and lowering modes just like you have to understand the Grigri. The problem people run into with the Cinch is that they don't take the time to learn it properly. They approach it like they approach the Grigri, which is more forgiving to the untrained user as it's easier to over ride and more intuitive to lower with. That's not to say that the Cinch is harder to lower with, it's just different and requires a different technique than the Grigri.

Sorry, I know that was drawn out. My point is is that they're different devices and almost nothing about one transfers to using the other. Understand and know your equipment before you go putting it to use.

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By Jason S.
From Durango, Co
Apr 2, 2011
Attempting the Serrator... didn't go well
Gri-Gri. I have a cinch, and I have been loving it for two years. I am going to buy a gri 2 as soon as I can. Anybody want to buy my cinch AKA The Sketch?

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By Jeremy Kasmann
From Denver, CO
Apr 7, 2011
Rich Schreckengost wrote:
ATC Guide and ditch your hang-doggin partner.


To my partners: please don't ditch your hang-doggin partner.

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By redlude97
Apr 7, 2011
Jason S. wrote:
Gri-Gri. I have a cinch, and I have been loving it for two years. I am going to buy a gri 2 as soon as I can. Anybody want to buy my cinch AKA The Sketch?

AKA totally flawed test using 1st gen cinch?

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By Alicia Sokolowski
From Brooklyn, NY
Apr 7, 2011
Hanging out waiting for Die Antwoord to come on stage
redlude97 wrote:
This a clear misinterpretation of the causes of the accident. The device was not at fault. A cinch also holds a fall without holding the rope at all(even thought it is not recommended). The climber decked because of belayer error, which could have happened with any device.


May I ask where your source of information is? Seems really bad form to blame the belayer 100% without any first-hand knowledge.

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By redlude97
Apr 7, 2011
Alicia Sokolowski wrote:
May I ask where your source of information is? Seems really bad form to blame the belayer 100% without any first-hand knowledge.

From the darkside accident thread on rc.com
user rocclimber30
My account of the events leading up to the accident involving Mike Tucker:

I was belaying a friend on Darth Mall, which is about 15 feet to the left of Elephant Man. At the time of the accident my climber was in direct to the 3rd or 4th bolt. My eyes were on Mike as he smoothly climbed past the 4th bolt and entered the crux of the climb. He took what should of been a normal lead fall a couple of feet above the 4th bolt. He did NOT skip any bolt nor was he pulling rope at the time of the fall. While falling mike got into a textbook position. He was in a cat like position with his feet extended in front of him ready to impact the wall. He free fell for about 10-15 feet before a little bit of rope drag from the rope running through the Trango Cinch could be heard. The rope drag was not enough to slow him or make any difference in the fall. As he fell the belayer came into my peripheral view. I could see that he was out of balance and fumbling with the Trango Cinch. I immediately lowered my climber and proceeded to administer first aid.

Not being familiar with the Trango Cinch, i could not tell by looking at it if it were loaded correctly during the fall. After stabilizing Mike 15-30 minutes after the initial fall, i had a chance to inspect the Trango Cinch and do a pull test in which the device seemed to be set up correctly and working properly.

Analysis: Belayer Error.

i. Device was set up backwards.

OR

2. Device was set up correctly and the belayer was caught off guard accidentally clamping down on the Trango Cinch in an attempt to balance himself.


user ltz
This is definitively NOT an official accident report and, to my knowledge, none of the parties involved has been contacted by any institution for an authoritative report. That said, no information is being actively repressed. There are no people to my knowledge withholding information. So, know in advance that what I post here is a third- and fourth-hand summary of what I have been able to piece together from various sources, including the belayer, who is continuing to work through his own recollection of this horrific accident. I know that the people involved in the fall and rescue intend to contact the organizations that report annually on Climbing and Alpine injuries and fatalities. For those of you seeking non-conjecture, authoritative finality, keep an eye out there.

The bottom line is that with any ground fall, if the rope or harness didn't break and bolts didn't fail - and in this case they didn't - the error is a human one. The failures that led to Mike's fall began long before his group hiked into the Darkside and they revolve around a set of beliefs and poor safety habits that are, unfortunately, all too pervasive in the climbing community. This includes “quickie” peer instruction for lead climbing/lead belaying; an over-reliance in the effectiveness of lock-assist devices; a willingness on the part of more experienced climbers to put less experienced belayers in situations requiring difficult catches (I've been told, and those of you who have belayed on Elephant man know, that it is a tough catch); and a general ambivalence toward the use of helmets - and I'm guilty of this too.

The belay device used at the time of Mike's fall was a Cinch, and the belayer inexperienced at using it. Clearly, it did not engage. Reports from the site indicate that the device was correctly loaded. Reports from the site also indicate that the belayer did not have a fixed hand on the brake. So, what this means is that the device did not engage and that the belayer was not using one of the fundamental actions required of a belayer: braking.

We know that a belayer should always have a fixed hand on the brake. But this accident presents a more complex situation that requires a look at what went wrong. On a Cinch, the device will not engage if 1) the device is manually held down, per Petzl's instructional videos on feeding rope to a lead climber; 2) the device is tipped on its side, which prevents rotation of the Cinch plates; or 3) if you belay from a position in which the pull force on the device is perpendicular to the belayer. This last scenario is particularly prevalent in a lead situation where the rope runs out (rather than up) from a belayer to the first bolt. Because of the steepness of Elephant man and the talus at the bottom, the latter situation seems to be the most likely.

Just because you know how to do something doesn't mean you know how to effectively teach it to someone else. What’s more, the people you choose to instruct become your responsibility. If you aren't qualified to teach someone don't pretend you are. Send them to someone who is qualified. And, if you're on the receiving end of instruction from your "buddy who's been doing it, like, forever and is really good" - use caution. Your instruction may well be inadequate.


Based on the information provided, no hand on brake strand, belayer error. Period. This is ignoring evidence that the belayer was holding the cinch open in addition to not holding the brake strand.

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By Alicia Sokolowski
From Brooklyn, NY
Apr 7, 2011
Hanging out waiting for Die Antwoord to come on stage
redlude97 wrote:
From the darkside accident thread on rc.com user rocclimber30 My account of the events leading up to the accident involving Mike Tucker: ...My eyes were on Mike as he smoothly climbed past the 4th bolt and entered the crux of the climb. He took what should of been a normal lead fall a couple of feet above the 4th bolt. He did NOT skip any bolt nor was he pulling rope at the time of the fall.


All the reports of the people participating in the rescue said only three bolts were clipped, but this says he was above the fourth bolt, but not skipping bolts. Also, this person admits they are not familiar with the cinch and posits it might have been backwards when those performing the rescue noted everything was set up correctly.

I can find a number of accounts that say there was no indication of belayer error on rc.com. There are posts on the same thread that state ground fall from the position of the fourth bolt is likely by the nature of the climb and those that state the exact opposite. It is a lot of speculation, IMHO, and not enough facts to place blame on someone who, I am sure, is suffering long term fallout from feelings of guilt.

I am not saying I know what happened either. I just hesitate to say it is X person's fault, that's that, tied up with a bow.

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By shotwell
Apr 7, 2011
Alicia Sokolowski wrote:
All the reports of the people participating in the rescue said only three bolts were clipped, but this says he was above the fourth bolt, but not skipping bolts. Also, this person admits they are not familiar with the cinch and posits it might have been backwards when those performing the rescue noted everything was set up correctly. I can find a number of accounts that say there was no indication of belayer error on rc.com. There are posts on the same thread that state ground fall from the position of the fourth bolt is likely by the nature of the climb and those that state the exact opposite. It is a lot of speculation, IMHO, and not enough facts to place blame on someone who, I am sure, is suffering long term fallout from feelings of guilt. I am not saying I know what happened either. I just hesitate to say it is X person's fault, that's that, tied up with a bow.


FYI, the Darkside Accident was belay failure. The climber did not skip a bolt, fell from the crux, and was dropped. The report quoted here is definitive. The statement that only three were clipped were made based on a super tense, super stressful scene. To be clear, we were more worried about making sure Mike got out of there alive than pointing fingers. I still won't blame in anger, but the truth is important.

For what it is worth, I really hope the belayer is doing ok. I would be a lot more fucked up than I am if I were in his shoes. An accident like this affects everyone involved more than you can guess. However, I won't pull a punch and say it wasn't his error. Mike wasn't run out and the Cinch didn't fail. Trying to put this on either of those two is flat out erroneous.

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