Reverso/Autlocking belay devices and rope diameter

Another gear question to this mix, the Reverso.

Petzl claims a wide range with their device for an autolock off of the anchor 8>11mm and 7.5>8.2mm with the Reversino. Double ropes are being made @ 8.1mm.

I've used 8.5mm with a Reverso & had hanging seconds with no slippage.

Any thoughts on the use of a Reverso & rope diameter size?

Mark,
I thought the Reversino was for for thin ropes and the Reverso was for larger diameters. I use a single 9.1 on a Reverso and it doesn't really provide enough friction for me.
Cheers, John

Some info from Petzl's technical notice on the Reverso which does indicate that 8.5mm is a minimum & acceptable strand size for 2 seconding climbers. From what I have seen from a hanging seconding climber, the autolocking Reverso with 8.5mm double ropes meets manufacturer's intent from Edelweiss (previously posted) & Petzl. However, I don't understand the warning from Petzl about risk of rope cut by an external system property (rock quality) as they don't manufacture the ropes.

I guess the concern that is raised somewhat by John's post & discussion with others; do we have a situation of using a system as properly intended by the manufacturer(s), but overall presents a safety hazard to seconding climbers?
Mark N.

Diagram 5. Belaying two seconds climbing together.
Rope compatibility
- Use 2 identical ropes (diameter, condition, brand, model).
- It is preferable to use 1 strand of certified single rope for each second.
- You can use 1 strand of certified half rope for each second.

WARNING the diameter must be greater than or equal to 8.5 mm.

WARNING, belaying a second with 1 strand of half rope presents a significant risk of the rope being severed by a sharp edge.
- Never use 1 strand of a twin rope to belay a second - a twin rope is not intended for this use.

Belaying two seconds
Install the rope following the principle shown in diagram 4B.
WARNING, The carabiner must be correctly positioned as a «brake bar» in contact with the body of the REVERSO, and be able to move freely without being constrained by the retainer (1); if not, DANGER OF DEATH.

WARNING, when belaying two seconds, the self-braking function can become disabled. If one of the two seconds is hanging on the rope, you must pay close attention to the rope on which the other is climbing. To limit the effects of a fall, take up slack regularly on each strand of rope (keep rope taut), keep a firm grip on the braking side of both strands of rope, and take care that the carabiner is correctly positioned.

A data point regarding the Reversino and rope diameter: I've found that it does NOT have sufficient friction, when using a single carabiner, to rappel on my 7.7mm Beal Ice Twin ropes. Nor does the Hugh Banner Air Marshall (also designed for skinny ropes) nor the Trango Jaws.

Using two carabiners gives enough friction, but that's surprisingly awkward when you're trying to hustle down a series of rappels at sunset. Plus, I'm obsessive. Of course, my ropes are gradually getting fuzzier, which may eventually solve the friction problem .

Another tidbit:

I have the updated model of the Reverso with the friction ridges and I don't have any lack of friction problems rapping or belaying a leader on my 9.8.

I also have a slightly fuzzy 10.5 though, and I avoid (like the plague) using my Reverso in autoblocking mode with this rope. There is just TOO MUCH friction and pulling the rope though feels like you are pulling it through clay or something. Its horrible.

-Mack

Agreed, Chris, the range I posted as being user friendly for me & within manf. recommendations was 8.5mm to 9.8mm (Jason's Post RE: autolock belaying) with my Reverso.

I have used my Reverso (not Reversino) to rap on an single strand 8 mm static 150 free hanging using two fat biners. Total weight on rap was about 200 pounds. I felt there was enough friction, but it was probably close to the edge. Other non-free hanging raps on the same setup were no problem at all.

Unfortunately after 1.5 years of rapping on my Reverso it is now getting so sharp that I will have to retire it. I am thinking of getting a BD ATC Guide which is rated for 7 mm ropes.

I recently got a Black Diamond ATC Guide and have been pleased with it so far. Black Diamond rates it for use with ropes from 7.7mm to 11.0mm. It might be a bit narrow for ropes larger than 10.5mm, however. I've used it with 9.5mm and 10.0mm ropes and it works fine for belaying, rappelling, and belaying off the anchor in auto-lock mode. It's very beefy, and probably won't wear down to sharp edges after prolonged use like the Petzl Reverso or the Trango B-52.

The only item I would really like to see addressed by BD is the 3 party team where 2 seconding climbers are belayed simtaneuously. Their product notice says this is possible, but I have reservations about going less than 8.5mm (BD is saying 7.7mm is ok). If they would address what the acceptable diameter range is, I would go along with your usage; but I want to make sure I'm belaying within safety recommendations.

If I just go with a couple of singles @ 9.7-8 I'm probably ok. But the doubles can be 7.8-8.5 (or somewhere near that range), with acceptable use for 2 seconding climbers, with one on each strand -- What is ok? Once, BD says what range is ok, I'm good with it. Otherwise, I would stick to the Reverso.

I managed to leave my device on a belay station (making any belay device argument totally mute) and had to simul w/ 2 munters, feeding the rope without letting the brakehand free is difficult, but a good skill to know. I found the way in using the guide hand is critical to moving the rope through the system & just slide the brake hand always holding both strands while crossing over with the guide hand is what worked for me (a 2-strand Slip, Slap, Slide, which I found means double the work of a single strand). Making matters more interesting, I had only 1 locking biner and had to double-up non-locking biners for one of the strands. I found friction was greater giving me more braking control, once I found a good pattern to move my hands, I really didn't have too much trouble feeding the rope through the munters even though friction was not identical.

Here's what Black Diamond says in the "Instructions for Use" on their website:

"One device to do it all, the new hot-forged ATC-Guide is a truly full-function belay device offering the most versatility of any device on the market—dual-friction belay and rappel modes and a Guide Mode for belaying one or two seconding climbers. In Guide Mode it locks if someone falls. Plus, due to the unique release point, you have the ability to lower a climber regardless of weight differences between the climber and belayer. Capable of handling ropes from 7.7 mm to 11 mm in a variety of adverse situations."

Based on this, I would say it's OK to bring up two seconding climbers on 7.7mm ropes. You could Contact Black Diamond to verify this.

Petzl also had the same general notice on their device, but had to issue a specific release once reports of 8.0 were slipping. I just want to make sure I'm not endangering the climbers. 2 of my friends had 8.1 slip on them; I've had 8.5 work with both climbers hanging & no problem. (this is with the Reverso)

Ron Olsen wrote: Based on this, I would say it's OK to bring up two seconding climbers on 7.7mm ropes. You could Contact Black Diamond to verify this.

To follow up on this -- from BD:

Hello Mark-
Thanks for writing. That is correct, the ATC Guide is compatible with rope diameters from 7.7mm to 11mm as per the instructions. It will successfully autolock when using a 7.7mm rope, such as the Beal Ice Twin. (However, the instructions also indicate that you should always have your hand on the brake side of the rope, just as you would with any belay device.) I hope that helps answer your questions. Please let us know if you have any others
OK? I hope you had a great weekend! Thanks again!

Best Regards,

Mike Duncan
Black Diamond Mail Order
2084 East 3900 South
Salt Lake City, UT 84124

mikedATbdel.com
801-278-5533 x 1102
801-278-5544 (fax)

www.bdel.com

DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise indicated, this correspondence is personal opinion and NOT an official statement of Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.

-----Original Message-----
From: mark nelson
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:46 PM
To: bdmoATbdel.com
Subject: BD ATC Guide & 2 Seconding Climbers

A couple of us have been trading e-mails & posts back & forth about belaying 2 seconding climbers using an autolocking belay device.

One use of your device allows for this. However, we have found that Petzl issued a specific notice in that the strand diameter to be used must be identical & at least 8.5mm if 2 seconding climbers on one strand each are being belayed simultaneously in an autlocking mode.

Your general notice indicates 7.7mm is acceptable for this. Is this accurate?

Can 2 seconding climbers be belayed using a BD ATC Guide with each climber on a 7.7mm strand and still have the device successfully autolock?

Petzl was concerned, as well as me & some friends, when we found 8.0mm was slipping with the Reverso.

Please advise when you can

Mark N.

GiGi by Kong is what I like. I've used the GiGi with an 8.5 mm Mammut rope just fine. I see my friends with wear on the Reverso so my next purchase would probably be the Black Diamond ATC Guide. They say 8 mm to 11 mm is the range for it. I rap with it on iced-up rope and it still works great. My partner got stuck with his ATC on an icy rappel.

Even though seconds hang on 8.5's worked I was still not going to let go of my brake hand.

Mark Nelson wrote:To follow up on this -- from BD: Hello Mark- Thanks for writing. That is correct, the ATC Guide is compatible with rope diameters from 7.7mm to 11mm as per the instructions. It will successfully autolock when using a 7.7mm rope, such as the Beal Ice Twin. (However, the instructions also indicate that you should always have your hand on the brake side of the rope, just as you would with any belay device.)

Thanks for checking on this, Mark. Sounds as if BD is addressing possible slippage using small-diameter ropes by requiring the brake hand to be always on the rope. In practice, this could be a bit difficult when bringing up two seconding climbers.

Several comments about the BD ATC Guide, which I have been using for the past few weeks:

1. It's a solid and beefy device. It should not develop sharp edges with prolonged use, unlike the Petzl Reverso and Trango B-52.

2. The rope slots are on the small side, just like the regular ATC and ATC-XP. This makes it difficult to thread fat ropes, and almost impossible to thread a 10-11mm static rope. The Trango B-52 is much better with fat or static ropes, since the rope slots are much bigger.

3. In autoblock mode, it's better to use a fatter round-stock biner like the Petzl Attache around the rope, instead of a skinnier biner like the BD Positron. Taking in rope is much easier and there is less binding.

4. All-in-all, I like the ATC Guide a lot and am generally pleased with its performance. I may still buy a second-generation Trango B-52 (with beefed-up edges) to see how well it lasts with prolonged use.

Ron Olsen wrote: Thanks for checking on this, Mark.

No problem.

One thing I've noticed in these posts: autoblock & autolock (sorry, Ron, just saw it in yours also). I've come to understand the autoblock is a position of a friction hitch in relation to the position of a rappel device; whereas autolock is a mechanical configuration of a belay device direct off of the anchor when belaying a second. Is this accurate or just splitting hairs?

Mark Nelson wrote: No problem. One thing I've noticed in these posts: autoblock & autolock (sorry, Ron, just saw it in yours also). I've come to understand the autoblock is a position of a friction hitch in relation to the position of a rappel device (can also be in conjunction with a belay device); whereas autolock is a mechanical configuration of a belay device direct off of the anchor when belaying a second. Is this accurate or just splitting hairs?

I've seen "autoblock" used in reference to belaying off the anchor in what BD calls "Guide Mode"; see Mountain Tools ATC Guide Description for example:

"BD's latest incarnation - the ATC GUIDE combines auto-blocking capabilities with traditional harness mounted belay function. This allows one device to be carried and used for multiple purposes: belaying the leader, auto-block belaying of one or two followers, lowering, and high or low friction."

In their Description of the B-52, Trango states:

'For advanced climbers and guides doing multi-pitch routes, the B-52™ can be used as an "autoblock" device that will lock the rope automatically when the leader is bringing up a climber from below.'

I've also seen "autoblock" used to refer to backing up a rappel device with a loop of webbing or cord attached to the rope below the brake hand.

I've also seen "autolock" used to refer to belaying in Guide Mode. I'm not sure about the exact difference in meaning between "autolock" and "autoblock" in this context. Perhaps "autoblock" means you still must have the brake hand on the rope in Guide Mode (as Black Diamond recommends), and "autolock" means the device will lock up even if the brake hand is not on the rope. Perhaps the two terms can be used interchangeably. More Googling is required here...

Auto-block is a type of friction hitch (like a prussik or klemheist, which can be used in many different applications, including as a "back-up" to a rappel device. When used as a rappel back-up, this friction hitch is normally attached to the rope on the brake hand side and then to a leg loop.

Auto-lock generally refers to any type of belay device which can be used "hands-free". This is typically done off of the anchor, although I have used my Reverso and ATC Guide in the "auto-lock" position off my harness in what I refer to as the "poor man's Gri-Gri" mode. In this configuration, it is very helpful if the climber can take their weight off the rope before lowering with the device in auto-lock mode so that it can be quickly switched back to "regular belay device" mode.

Most manufacturers still recommend keeping a hand on the brake strands of the rope even when using a device in "auto-lock mode" as very thin ropes or especially ropes coming out of the device at wide angles to each other can slip when loaded--this is partly to cover their butts should a rope slip. After 20 years of guiding and having used a Gi-Gi, Reverso, and now the ATC Guide in well over 200,000' of top-belaying use off of the anchor, I have only seen slippage occur under the two circumstances described. I'm waiting patiently for the device which automatically pulls the rope up to come out--I'll buy three!

The ATC Guide is definitely the preferred device for this use now as it doesn't form the dangerously sharp edge of the Reverso and is very nice for rappelling with unlike the Gi-Gi. I generally never use a rope over 9.7mm in any of these devices in auto-lock mode as ropes any thicker do not move very well through them- plus I never use a thicker rope for any type of use except maybe jugging on El Cap or similar terrain would be the main place I would use a thicker line.

Here's how Trango uses the terms "autoblocking" and "auto-locking", from their FAQ on the B-52:

"Q: I read the instructions and all those tiny pictures made my head hurt. Can you explain the autoblocking thing a little bit more?

A: WhooHoooo! That’s the 10 Million dollar question. Autoblocking your second is a technique where you hang your B-52 directly off the anchors and belay the second through the device, which will automatically lock if the second falls or hangs on the rope. Setting it up correctly and safely is complicated and must be practiced beforehand, especially if you think you might ever have to lower a second who is hanging on the rope (You will.). Keep reading, Instructions follow.

Q: Is autoblocking the same as auto-locking?

A: No way.

Autoblocking is the technique explained above and refers only to belaying a second up to you. You never autoblock a leader and you don’t autoblock on a slingshot top rope.

Auto-locking refers to a device which locks up automatically when a climber’s weight (leader or second) comes on the rope. BTW, read the warnings that come with these devices; most of these companies don’t recommend hands-off belaying."

In discussing these 2 terms, are they so important to distinguish?

Wouldn't an understanding of the actual field applications; either in giving yourself redundancy in a rap setup, or configuring a belay device directly off of the anchor, be more applicable to an actual technical gear situation than interchanging either term in a discussion?

(what difference does it make if we say "autolock" or "autoblock"? It's the field use that is relevant; and since they are 2 completely different gear applications, it seems like splitting hairs to me. I know I brought this up, but in thinking about it, I haven't reasoned any importance to interchanging the terms. Reading Trango's opinion still seems like they are saying the same thing two different ways, if a device mechanically locks when weighted, then it locks.)

Say I setup my Reverso for rope ascension so it locks automatically when I weight it, but then also setup a friction hitch as my foot loop and also tie it into my harness as a redundant that prevents rope from feeding into the Reverso; basically I've applied both concepts in the same situation, but in fact they are different in application.

Ron Olsen wrote: "Q: Is autoblocking the same as auto-locking? A: No way. Autoblocking ... refers only to belaying a second up to you. ... Auto-locking refers to a device which locks up automatically when a climber�s weight (leader or second) comes on the rope. "

One thing I read that probably could separate confusion in terms is called "third hand". This refers to a friction hitch used as a redundant to the brake hand. I have used the sling/cord wrap (usually referred as the autoblock hitch), the prusik, & the kleimheist in the position where the "third hand" is below the rap device (or even munter hitch) -- all three work well. I have seen many times where the prusik is referred as always being above the rap device; this seems like a mis-reference to me. The prusik & kleimheist are friction hitches -- not rappel configurations, they will work in a position either above or below the rap device; but going above the rap device is not as user-friendly as positioning below the device. The autoblock hitch, really is more of a quasi-hitch as it won't work unless it is assisted with the friction of the rap device. Thus, in this configuration, the simple cord/sling wrap is to be placed below the rap device; then somewhere along the way this configuration was given the common term: autoblock.

Another point I read relates to the way auto-locking is referred to in the above quote which does not seem correct to me. If I use a gri-gri to belay a leader, it's supposed to lock up (during the initial fall force, it will lock up), however this action within a gri-gri is relative to force applied -- it will not lock up entirely and will "ooze" out rope if not enough force is applied; thus, a hanging leader or second by body weight could continue to move unless the brake hand is applied to hold the climber in place. So auto-locking does not seem to be well termed within this application. Whereas, a Reverso/ATC Guide/or similar device will mechanically lock up when weighted if this device is configured to do so.

Hopefully, I'm not making more confusion out of something that is applied totally different in technical application even though similarly termed.

Hey All:

Just got my annuals from the AAC including the Accidents report for 2006.

Jim Ratz, co-owner of Jackson Hole Mtn Guides and VP of the board of trustees for the AMGA and former exec. director for NOLS, and climber since 1970; was killed this past year giving his life in an attempt to make a route safer for others to enjoy in Sinks Canyon, WY (pages 80-87). (Ethics or fixed pro discussion aside, this is more about rap safety configuration.)

Also see Eric's post on this site: In Memoriam, Jim Ratz, 1952-2005
mountainproject.com/v/utah/…

He possibly rapped off the end of his ropes. Here's the thing, he was using an auto-block friction hitch with its position being below the rap device and off of the leg loop. His rap device was a Reverso which was positioned off of the belay loop. The ropes were 10.5mm in diameter.

This configuration is acceptable in about every instruction manual I have seen showing the use of the auto-block friction hitch.

A safety recommendation coming from JHMG is that the positioning of the rap device right off of the belay loop and auto-block off of the leg loop is not considered coaxial and could cause the friction hitch to fail should the leg lift into the rap device when weighted. The recommendation is to extend the rap device from the belay loop using a fall rated sling, this is called "cow-tailing", and place the friction hitch to the belay loop to make the configuration coaxial.

In using my PAS, I have cow-tailed this in conjunction with my rap device so as to allow me room to work with fixed gear or the anchor while on descent. But, I have placed the friction hitch off of my leg loop, and actually used a friction hitch such as a prusik or kleimheist (but, I have not had a problem with the simple wrap -- as I had offered earlier, my thought is that this is not a true hitch, as it requires also the friction created by the rap device to work effectively). Petzl has a video showing the use of their Reverso in a cow-tailed position.

This recommendation from JHMG, is certainly one worth discussion.

Would keeping the brake hand on or using a leg wrap prevented rapping off the end of the ropes? Yes, as well tying stopper knots; however, when fixing/working on a route, the intent of using a friction hitch is to allow the climber to be more mobile and also to stop descent so that the climber can work with both hands free, which I personally have not had a problem with in application. So, I would say that for this advanced application of wall work, the leg wrap is too cumbersome & working one-handed defeats the purpose.

I have also gotten away from stopper knots as they have caused me problems when rapping around cracks & almost had a serious incident due primarily to a stopper knot getting stuck in a crack at the most inopportune position when rapping so as to almost prevent me from achieving a safe anchor position.

Certainly, the end result of the incident that took Jim was preventable, which is probably why the Guides have offered such an extended recommendation to those that wish to perform work on a wall.

I would take their thought in making sure there is no possible way the friction hitch could fail should I move my leg upward into the rap device. From my impression, their account is that the auto-block simple-wrap fails immediately and might not allow a climber to react.