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Wintergreen 

YDS: 5.10c French: 6b Ewbanks: 20 UIAA: VII ZA: 20 British: E2 5b PG13

   
Type:  Sport, 1 pitch, 70'
Original:  YDS: 5.10c French: 6b Ewbanks: 20 UIAA: VII ZA: 20 British: E2 5b PG13 [details]
FA: Paul Crawford and Jay Smith
Page Views: 77
Submitted By: tallmark515 on Mar 31, 2009

You & This Route  |  Other Opinions (7)
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Description 

Crux is before and just past the high first bolt that requires a few 5.10+ face moves. The rest of the route is sustained; most hand features are small, side-pull crimps and feet are mostly smears on small, slopey bulges on low angle face.

Move past 3 bolts, then be careful when doing final tricky moves (with your feet 3-4 feet above last bolt). Last 10+ feet after that are runout, but on easy and low angle, 5.7 terrain.



Location 

On Sugar Bun formation (on the mossy side) - To the right of Dirty Dog, route runs next to the arete of the formation.

Protection 

3 bolts to bolted anchor


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Comments displayed oldest to newestSkip Ahead to the Most Recent Dated Jun 7, 2011
By tallmark515
From: San Francisco
Mar 31, 2009

Final moves are a bit too far past the last bolt for comfort. Scary top out! Why isn't there a fourth bolt.
By Salamanizer suchoski
Administrator
From: Vacaville Ca.
Apr 30, 2009

Because the route was put in ground up on lead and the FA felt the climbing above was too easy to justify a bolt... Which I agree with.
By ShaunG Gregg
From: SF, CA
Oct 24, 2009

Route has a potential of ground fall or sprained ankle. It is very short three bolt slab. There should be one more bolt protecting the mantle b/c the rock is very polished at that spot. Putting one more bolt at that point is convenient to clip, safer and doesn't take away from the aesthetics of the route.
By burlap submariner
Feb 20, 2010

but thats just not how it works.
By Karsten Duncan
From: Sacramento, CA
Feb 25, 2010

Aesthetics are relative. To some, bolts take away from the aesthetics, the experience, and challenge.
By Josh Cameron
From: Sacramento, California
Jun 1, 2011

If you want to put a bolt in, then just do it. I doubt the bolt would ever be pulled on a climb like Wintergreen. And if you don't like the idea of adding a bolt then think about what you're fighting over. This isn't a Yosemite classic.

I once met a guy who claimed climbing is too safe these days, yet he climbed with a rope and clipped all the bolts. If you really want to be hardcore, then go free solo something at your limit . . . without chalk.
By caughtinside
From: Oakland CA
Jun 2, 2011

Greetings fellow climbers,

After reading the above comments and experiencing the emotional ride from outrage to despair and back, I have given this matter some thought and would like to say the following:

This is rock climbing. There is a certain risk you should all accept before participating. Sometimes the level of risk might suddenly spike above what you are prepared for on any given route. Do not fret, there are options.

1) you can retreat. This thing has bolts. Jump off or downclimb, and lower off a single biner. Gas is $4 a gallon, you can absorb the loss of a biner.

2) communicate with your belay. A good belay can keep you safe even when well above pro. There is more to this important job than just locking off and hoping for the best. Ponder that.

3) Toprope the line. There are other routes on the sugarbun you can safely ascend to get your rope up there. Toss it down Wintergreen and have fun.

4) Send up a better climber. This is one of my favorites for getting on routes I am flat out not good enough to lead. Be honest with yourself.

5) Sack up, accept the challenge of a runout on sub crux climbing, and enjoy a challenge beyond the purely physical.

That's it! No need for an additional bolt. The Loaf and the 'Bun are not true sport climbing areas, despite what someone might think after looking at what has been done to some of the outlying rocks. It should come as no surprise that you can climb for more than 6 feet without a bolt.

Tahoe has several great granite sport areas nearby, Mayhem and Luther are good places to start. Climb smart, climb safe, and don't alter existing routes. Cheers.
By Ryan Curry
Jun 3, 2011

Well said, caughtinside. If you're not willing to accept the risks that a climb offers don't climb the route.
By Josh Cameron
From: Sacramento, California
Jun 6, 2011

I agree with you caughtinside and I think you articulate a climber's options better than most. I also like how Sugarloaf is mainly a traditional climbing area with a "traditional" bolted climbs.

However, without turning this into another mindless thread on the topic of "to bolt or not to bolt," I wanted to make the point that many climbers seem to lament the "good old days" of dangerous climbing and scary runouts, but they aren't the ones pursuing this type of climbing anymore. I almost never see anyone on "Harding's Chimney" (while "Scheister" has a line) or "TM's Deviation" (not necessarily runout but quite spooky). Only the greats of climbing like Bachar and Reardon (to name just a few) actually practice the "climbing is dangerous" mentality (climbing at or near your limit with limited pro) and they've both regretably passed on.
By Salamanizer suchoski
Administrator
From: Vacaville Ca.
Jun 6, 2011

Josh, with due respect... truely. You have no idea what you're talking about. You're trying to compare apples to oranges. Wintergreen is nowhere near a "runnout death route", in fact I wouldn't even consider it to be runnout at all. People do climb "dangerous" routes all the time and "dangerous" is only a matter of perception and opinion anyway. People climb Hardings Chimney almost every day, it's "scary"(to some) runnout is what makes it classic. Same goes for Fantasia. Would you consider placing bolts on Fantasia because you perceive it to be dangerous and therefore unenjoyable? What about the less classic Fear No Evil or Telesis? The short stretch of easier climbing above the last bolt on Wintergreen is one of it's most enjoyable features... for me. I really do enjoy these types of routes, they focus my mental state and give a bit of excitement and commitment beyond just being high off the ground and pulling down hard. Without routes like these, even as insignificant as one might be, climbing for me wouldn't ever be the same. I wouldn't enjoy it nearly as much. And I'm sure you were just saying it without really suggesting anyone actually do so, but I would hope you or anyone else would never suggest to anyone that they just go around adding bolts to routes just because you think it should have more or is "unsafe" for you. We "all" climb for different reasons, and we "all" have to respect that. If not, we "all" loose.
By caughtinside
From: Oakland CA
Jun 7, 2011

Hello Josh,

I think you are off base with some of those comments. Harding's Chimney gets climbed a lot. TM's Deviation, while less popular, isn't runout. it is difficult though!

Sure, the fun, easy, well protected routes will always be the most popular. 10 years ago when I started climbing I thought somewhat as you did, that these R routes with big numbers were only for a tiny elite. But there are a lot of guys out there doing that stuff, not just big names like Bachar and Reardon.

As I have gotten better and my skills developed, routes which once seemed like they would never be possible became possible. I did all the easy routes and learned. I'd do routes like Wintergreen, where you might have to do some sub crux moves above gear, and I learned from that too.

There is no need for a bolt. You could easily just chip jugs at the top. Gotta draw the line somewhere, and I don't think this is even one of the many gray areas.

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