What's up with this 4 C4? Play along the axels

So while sorting out my rack after a day of climbing this weekend, I noticed a huge amount of play in the axels on my #4 Camalot C4. There's no play in the other 10+ C4's in my rack, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't like this before.

I didn't even use it this weekend and I don't think the cam took any hits of any kind otherwise. It's probably only been placed a couple times (and never fallen on) since I last checked my stuff over (while switching from electrical tape to nail polish).

The axels will actually slide through the lobes, springs, and 'head' of the cam until the space is on the other side. As a result of the space, the lobes actually have a fair bit of play themselves so they can be noticeably non-parallel (shown on one of the pictures). I'd be very hesitant to place this as it is based on that observation.

Any idea what's going on/how this could have happened? I'll bring it back to MEC, but I'd like to have some idea of how this happened beforehand.

Note the space on the left side of the axels

Closeup of the space

Trying to demonstrate the misalignment (I can push the lobes into positions like this)

Interesting. I just recreated your pictures on my C4 #4. There doesn't seem to be anything on the axles that would keep the lobes in place, and even the connection to the stem can slide on the axles. I don't see any reason this is structurally undesirable. I'd say this is normal behavior, but like you, I'd never noticed that before.

It's normal! Just realign the lobes and axles.
The axles slide in the head and the lobes wobble sightly on the axles.

yes, there is some play in the system, it's just way more obvious on the bigger C4 sizes. Don't think this means anything is wrong.

Why are AK 47's so reliable?

nicelegs wrote:Why are AK 47's so reliable?

Are you suggesting these cams are not reliable?

Huh, yeah, it looks like if I try enough I can get other cams to show a little bit of play... interestingly, none so much as the #4, not even the #5 has that much space (don't have a #6 to play with). I can get some serious misalignment going on in the lobes, but I suppose that's normal, at least for this size.

AK-47's are reliable because they are made with super sloppy tolerances. This is what allows them to be thrown in a mud puddle, picked right up and still fire without issue (Don't try it with an AR-15).

All of my cams do this as well, but the tolerances become bigger the bigger the cam gets. My WC and DMM cams as well as my #5 C4. It's completely normal.

Oh yea, here's my #5 C4 with the lobes pushed to one side.

#5 C4

nicelegs wrote:Why are AK 47's so reliable?

great marketing idea "Black Diamond #4--the AK 47 of climbing"

Its fine

It happens on the smaller sizes as well

You can realign it with a pair of pliers for the smaller sizes

However i recommend against "whacking it" against something which some have recommended before

Its possible to knock loose the spring where it attaches to the lobe

This also happens with the dmm dragons

;)

Andrewww wrote:AK-47's are reliable because they are made with super sloppy tolerances. This is what allows them to be thrown in a mud puddle, picked right up and still fire without issue (Don't try it with an AR-15). All of my cams do this as well, but the tolerances become bigger the bigger the cam gets. My WC and DMM cams as well as my #5 C4. It's completely normal. Oh yea, here's my #5 C4 with the lobes pushed to one side.

I would say the can are anything but sloppy. The tolerances required to achieve a just right fit are actually quite high. Not too loose, not too tight. Check all your came out, they'll have a similar fit in the axles and head.

True true, ar/m16 platform is far more accurate and a far nicer platform, really I prefer the AR over the AK. The AK is not as accurate, light or user-friendly, but it does what it needs to do.

I guess that goes the same for cams, my DMM dragons have less slop and definitely feel like a more refined cam, but C4's work great and get the job done.

AKs are gas operated, not recoil operated.

To further the pedantry, AK's are NOT made with loose tolerances, they are designed with loose clearances. That is why you can dunk them in the mud and still shoot. There's room for the gunk to move around.

The maximum target distance is the factor of the cartridge being fired, not the weapon platform being used.

Made=designed, I was using that term as the same. I understand that they were created this way for a reason. Stamped steel receivers. However you can buy an AK with milled aluminum receivers and they do have much tighter tolerances, and you pay more for them.

Oh and I think the maximum target distance was more or less referring to the accuracy of the platform, not actual distance traveled. There is no argument, the AR platform is far more accurate at distance than the AK-47.

Andrewww wrote:Made=designed, I was using that term as the same. I understand that they were created this way for a reason. Stamped steel receivers. However you can buy an AK with milled aluminum receivers and they do have much tighter tolerances, and you pay more for them. Oh and I think the maximum target distance was more or less referring to the accuracy of the platform, not actual distance traveled. There is no argument, the AR platform is far more accurate at distance than the AK-47.

You're really not getting it.

Jake Jones wrote: I disagree. The 30.06 is almost the same exact round and when fired from a hunting rifle, is effective, with open sights for at least 600 yards. I hit a cantaloupe painted blaze orange at 700 on a known distance range. With a scope even further. The M240G fully auto crew-served machine gun is accurate on a point target up to 875 yards- incidentally the AK47 and the M240G fire exactly the same round.

7.62x51, 7.62x55, and 7.62x39 are all different rounds.

Let's talk about climbing gear.

Jon H wrote: You're really not getting it.

Ahhh, I see you changed your bold words and added the word "clearances". Jon I do agree with you, I understand the design purposes behind the AK-47, I just figured I would add that there are companies making tighter AK's using milled aluminum receivers as opposed to the old reliable stamped steel receivers.

I just thought we could have some fun and make some basic comparisons between cams and rifles, but I guess some people want to get defensive about semantics.

You're welcome everybody!

Okay but wait. Where do I buy a scope for my #4 Camalot and how do I reload it?

Thanks for all the input on the cam guys, glad I wasn't climbing on some malformed freak cam. Still super weird how much play there is, but it must be tolerable.

I wonder why there isn't an aluminum spacer tube (around 5-10mm long, don't have the cam in front of me anymore) on the axel beneath the coil spring betwen the lobe and 'head', you figure that would eliminate play while leaving the springs to do their thing.