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Dante's Wall
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Abandon all Hope T 
Celestial Spheres S 
Dis S 
Divine Comedy S 
Inferno S 
One Hundred Cantos S 
Right Road Lost, The S 
Three Mouths, Three Faces S 
Virgil and Beatrice S 
Virtuous Pagans S 

Virtuous Pagans 

YDS: 5.10c French: 6b Ewbanks: 20 UIAA: VII ZA: 20 British: E2 5b

   
Type:  Sport, 70'
Original:  YDS: 5.10c French: 6b Ewbanks: 20 UIAA: VII ZA: 20 British: E2 5b [details]
FA: Michael Kimm, Fall 2014
New Route: Yes
Page Views: 1,209
Submitted By: Michael Kimm on Dec 26, 2014

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overview

RAIN AND WET ROCK The sandstone in Red Rocks is fragile and is very easily damaged when it is wet. MORE INFO >>>

Description 

The furthest right line on the main wall. Dyno (or don't) to the first flat jug and pull up into a juggy, sandy flake. Fight straight up and over to some pretty good crimps, and deal with one thin move before pulling into the pod and a no hands rest. More steepness on pretty good holds takes you up and left and into the finish of Celestial Spheres. Good fun.

Protection 

Seven bolts to chains.


Photos of Virtuous Pagans Slideshow Add Photo
Rock Climbing Photo: Luc heel-hooking the first move.
Luc heel-hooking the first move.
Rock Climbing Photo: John on Virtuous Pagans.
John on Virtuous Pagans.

Comments on Virtuous Pagans Add Comment
Show which comments
By Max Zentner
From: Bellingham
Dec 23, 2015

Maybe the most fun route here. Pretty soft though, so if you can climb the tens give yourself an ego boost and hop on this route!
By JF1
From: Las Vegas
Jan 30, 2016
rating: 5.10b/c 6b 20 VII 20 E2 5b

rockandice.com/weekend-whipper...
By Countzen Shin
From: Santa Monica, CA
Apr 5, 2016

I am pretty sure the only 11a Move is the very first dyno, which is the 1st-2nd move. Rest is anywhere from 10a to 10d individual moves.

The 2nd to 3rd bolt is a mental crux due to the silly weekend whipper video. :/
By Garçon Rouge
Jan 17, 2017

As I'm just recently pushing into the 5.11 range, I'd like to consider this my first on sight 11, since the guide book considers this 11a. Honestly though, it really is more in the 5.10c range. Even the first move isn't much of a dyno unless you're on the short side. Fun climb either way.
By Mike Zasadzien
Apr 10, 2017
rating: 5.11a 6c 22 VII+ 22 E3 5c

I mean, the grade is all relative to your location. If you think this is a high ten, then all the high tens in the area should be low tens or high nines, and the low tens / high nines in the area should be regarded as nines or eights...and then you'd have to re-grade all of the routes at civ crag while you're at it. OR We can all just admit that all sport routes at RR are typically soft and keep the grades the same to keep consistency in relation to each other.
By The Beagle
Apr 12, 2017

OR you could use better syntax and explain that you disagree with the rating in a more concise and cogent fashion.

This route is 5.10, no harder. Sorry your ego got bruised. Given your breadth and depth of experience indicated by the profile, clearly you have achieved such a mastery of climbing as to be able to indicate the grade of a route by the masterful act of toproping.

#topropetuffguys
By Mike Zasadzien
Apr 25, 2017
rating: 5.11a 6c 22 VII+ 22 E3 5c

Beagle, I've ran it on lead in the past as well, and all I'm saying is that I find consistency in ratings in an area more important than the ratings themselves. It doesn't help to sandbag a single route when all the routes here are on the soft side. I would think that most people agree that this route is a level of difficulty harder than Dis, which is a level of difficulty harder than a few of the other routes here; which as a whole, are a level of difficulty harder than the routes over at neighboring Civilization Crag, all of which are bolted and rated by the same person; and it would all stay consistent with the available literature out there.
By Sandy Crimp
Apr 25, 2017

More likely than not, the guidebook author did not even climb the route. He either pulled it from here or asked the FA.

This site's consensus feature allows all of us to register our vote in the rating. As you gain more experience you will focus less on minor grade differences as you will realize it is a collective suggestion at best. It's not scientific. The feeling that RR is soft is more based upon a few notable softies. I have climbed all over the world and done thousands of routes. RR is pretty much normal in terms of sportclimbing ratings, and any given route on any given day can feel hard or soft based on a lot of personal factors.

Register your vote, and move on to the next one. If this is "your" first 11a....go with it...but don't waste energy trying to convince everyone else. The FA called it 10c and some others have rated it 10b/c. Obviously, many other climbers feel the 5.10 rating is just fine...what does it really matter to you? Does their opinion invalidate your "accomplishment "? We will never all agree as we are all different. One thing is for sure: In a year or two, you will not care.
By Michael Kimm
From: Las Vegas, NV
Apr 25, 2017

Okay, so, I don't know why there's so much back and forth over something as silly as the grade of this route, but here's my two cents (for what it's worth).
Originally, when I first put the route up, I was dynoing the start, more because it was a fun move than because you have to do it that way. That move might very well be 11a, and so I was describing it that way to friends I took out to the wall early. As the route cleaned up and the heel hook became the standard way to begin for most people, it became apparent to me that the route was in fact somewhere in the mid-10 range, and so I assigned it the grade of 10c, which I honestly believe to be the grade of the route. Dis is a bit easier, probably 10b/c, given it's cleaned up as well as it has.
Ultimately though, my thoughts or anyone else's thoughts on the grade don't really matter, as grading is completely subjective, and is only meant to give a really broad and approximate sense of how difficult something is. You want to call it 11a because it was your first 11 and sending opened up a new level for you? Great!! That's awesome! You want to call it 10b to encourage a friend of yours to get on it (because he only climbs 10-)? Sweet! Push him to climb harder! At the end of the day though, the grade has no bearing on if it's a good climb or not.
And, in my calm and completely unbiased opinion, Virtuous Pagans is indeed a good climb.

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