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Use of C3's in Pin Scars

Original Post
Tom Sherman · · Austin, TX · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 433

Just got back from a weekend at the gunks, where I found myself climbing a lot more 'PG' and a lot more runout than I'm used to/would like to.

My small cam rack consists of

Met Mastercam 0 seems its always on the ground when I need it
Totem Basic Blue
WC Tech Friend Red
Fixe Alien Green


It seems if I want to get something into a pin scar it has to be either the Totem or the Alien. The alien never fits, and the totem is too wide quite often. The mastercam is pretty good, but still looking for something skinnier.

Are C3's what I'm looking for? Anything better?

I don't really have any money to blow, but should I spring for

Purple/Green
Green/Red
Purple/Green/Red
Green/Red/Yellow


???
I guess what I am asking is on what end is stupid small?
And on what end does the head-width not matter? And you can get away with any micro-cam???

David House · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2001 · Points: 453

I have used the C3's for a long time and like them. Their advantages are the narrow head and their durability. The disadvantage is the stiff and bulky stem, which probably contributes to their durability. Something like a master cam or a X4 or an alien with a more flexible stem could fit better in a pin scar. And you might try an offset cam. I don't own any offsets, they have always struck me as a very specialized piece. For pin scars my first choice is always an offset stopper for two reasons: pin scars usually have a constriction at the bottom and an outward flare, and they are often crucial holds and the stopper allows you to use the pin scar as a handhold where a cam might fill up the wide part.

mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,885

While head width plays a role in all placements, I've found that .75 Camalot and below you start to notice it and the crucial size is 0.3 and below (Blue C4, Green Alien, Blue Totem etc).

Most of the time, Alien / Totem width is fine however, when you start getting into the really tight placements like pinned out seams etc, the slightly more narrow C3 does work better. There are places where I never bring C3s and others where they're mandatory to supplement my Offset Totems and reg Totems.

Prolific Gunks local RGOLD agrees - "As for C3's vs Aliens, I think C3's win hands down, in the Gunks anyway. I have both on my rack in comparable sizes, and after multiple occasions when I couldn't get in a decent Alien and then immediately placed a good C3 in the same spot, I pretty much stopped reaching for Aliens at all unless the placement is obviously not problematic. The narrower C3 head makes a real difference in wiggly and/or featured cracks. Almost everyone I've climbed with who has only Aliens and who uses my rack ends up commenting on how they were able to place C3's where Aliens wouldn't go, so it isn't just me.
"

JCM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 115

A mix of Totem Basics and C3s is a nice combo on the small stuff. The head width of the C3 does make a difference, especially in the smaller sizes. If you are looking to get just two C3s to start, the best two are the purple and green. Red is third best. It may depend on the rock type. I'm personally not a fan of the yellow, it is just a bit too wobbly for my tastes, but if I climbed on pockety hotizontals like at the Gunks I may feel differently). The grey C3 is too small for general free climbing.

The purple C3 is quite nice, and with the narrow head fits in way more places the the similar size wider head cams (like the 0.1 X4). Placed well in good rock, it is solid and confidence-inspiring for such a small piece (I fell on mine several times this summer...).

IJMayer · · Guemes Island, WA · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 350

i had the red and yellow c3 when climbing in the gunks and used them a ton. i think once i had more money i got the green and used that too. i always thought they worked great.

now i'm climbing more granite cracks in washington and the aliens and master cams seem to fit better in vertical pin scars. i still use the c3s a lot, but for more standard placements.

i was climbing mid-5.10 in the gunks.

Tom Sherman · · Austin, TX · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 433
mattm wrote:width is fine however, when you start getting into the really tight placements like pinned out seams etc, the slightly more narrow C3 does work better
Thanks for all the great replies thus far.

Mattm, i think you hit the nail on the head, "pinned out seams" is really what I'm talking about

Maybe I should just start with green and see if I want to go up or down.
Gunks Jesse · · Shawangunk Township, NY · Joined May 2014 · Points: 111

I ALWAYS carry green, red, yellow C3s on my rack in the Gunks and I usually place two of the three on a pitch. I don't use the purple.

Yura Porotnikov · · Denver, CO · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 17

My $0.02 on the subject. I carry two offset Fixe aliens: red/yellow and yellow/green. These two do magic in pin scars. I also have two smallest offset X4s: red/yellow and yellow/blue. I use them not as often as aliens but they work great in smaller flared cracks.

I also have all five C3 and four smallest X4s. It's a lot of gear but it's light and I never have to worry that I don't have a small cam of a right size.

Medic741 · · Des Moines, IA (WTF) · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 265

Green/red & the .4/.5x4 offset for the gunks.

Place the green c3 a ton and the .4/.5 offset use key. Can get c3s at the annex for ~$30

+1 for the narrow heads being key. I've whipped on the c3s and they're miraculous what they can hold in granite

Logan Fuzzo · · Portland, OR · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 437

The new totem alien offsets are your cam. Totems (basic and totem cams) are the absolute best cam; second place is a long way down... Their offset basics would fit into pin scars better than many others. They are totally worth the extra dough

Nathan.H · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 0

I have my offset Mastercams for sale on ebay. I like the red and green C3's. For aid I have the three hybrid Totem sizes and then red, green and a purple C3's for the smaller pin scar sizes. FYI...the 1, 2 and 3 offset master cams are the same sizes as the three hybrid Totem sizes. The master cams work fine. But the Totems are better if money is not an issue.

ebmudder · · Bronx, NY · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 55

You're climbing in the 'Gunks, trying to protect pin scars, and you're not using tri-cams? :o

mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,885
ebmudder wrote:You're climbing in the 'Gunks, trying to protect pin scars, and you're not using tri-cams? :o
Pretty sure he's getting into VERTICAL pin scars for which TriCams are pretty much terrible. C3s and small offsets will rule the day here.
ebmudder · · Bronx, NY · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 55
mattm wrote: Pretty sure he's getting into VERTICAL pin scars for which TriCams are pretty much terrible. C3s and small offsets will rule the day here.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that blanket statement. This is a bad example, but I use the white and black all the time in vertical scars.

Gunks Jesse · · Shawangunk Township, NY · Joined May 2014 · Points: 111

There isn't a tricam that will fit where any C3 would go. All for larger cracks. And for better or worse, i haven't placed a tricam in a long time and stopped carrying them in the gunks . I still like them, they protect well, but just haven't used them.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Black tricams overlap with C3s.

George W · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 6

Ball nutz, anyone?

I personally love the yellow C3, but it was booty, so maybe that's why...

Andrew Poet · · Central AZ · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 161
Gunks Jesse wrote:There isn't a tricam that will fit where any C3 would go. All for larger cracks. And for better or worse, i haven't placed a tricam in a long time and stopped carrying them in the gunks . I still like them, they protect well, but just haven't used them.
White tricam definitely fits in the small C3 range. Granted it is marginal pro at best.
Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520
George W wrote:Ball nutz, anyone?
Mine have fit in Eldo pin scars before, but I really didn't think they would hold.
Gunks Jesse · · Shawangunk Township, NY · Joined May 2014 · Points: 111

There are some additional considerations besides range with the white tricam. While white and black do overlap, they need a deeper pocket placement to function in active mode than a C3. maybe 1/3 of the places I use C3s are shallow in the Gunks, although there are lots of exceptions. Additionally, the strength rating for the white tricam in active mode is only 3 kN, which is less than the 000 C3 which is recommended for aid only based on its 4 kN strength rating.

I would not recommend tricams as a substitute for C3s even though they do overlap and the black has an acceptable load rating for lead falls. Since the OP is asking for advice on C3s i would say that if you go with tricams over C3s you will be disappointed.

Rope Byrne · · Colorado Springs · Joined May 2015 · Points: 105
Stich wrote: Mine have fit in Eldo pin scars before, but I really didn't think they would hold.
I think that this is why they are named so aptly. Psychological gear that probably won't hold much, but definitely makes you feel like you can keep going
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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