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TR after leader
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May 3, 2016
Just wanted to know if it's common practice for leader at the top of a route to just use 2xstandard non-locking quickqraws to lower off and then use for top-roping other climbers? Or is this an unsafe practice. Fraser32
Joined May 3, 2016
0 points
Administrator
May 3, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Me and the offspring walking back to the car after...
Pretty standard. Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Joined Jul 30, 2011
1,231 points
May 3, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: gilman
It's all a matter of degree. Not as safe as using equalized runners with locking biners, safer than using one draw.
You can top rope off one bolt, the second is simply maintaining the best practice of never relying on any one single point.
Mike Lane
From Centennial, CO
Joined Jan 21, 2006
1,025 points
May 3, 2016
jesus Nathanael
From Riverside, CA
Joined May 27, 2011
258 points
May 3, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Moss
It is fine. Safe, redundant, simple.

Mike Lane wrote:
It's all a matter of degree. Not as safe as using equalized runners with locking biners, ...


Can anyone cite an actual, not theoretical, example of where two draws with opposite and opposed rope end carabiners came unclipped and caused the fall of a top roped climber?
Jason Todd
From Cody, WY
Joined Apr 21, 2012
712 points
May 3, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Belaying 2nd (or was it 3rd? 4th?) on Turk's Head ...
How about any toprope accidents at all? 2 draws are fine as long as they're opposite and opposed. Ted Pinson
From Chicago, IL
Joined Jul 11, 2014
178 points
May 3, 2016
Thanks Guys Fraser32
Joined May 3, 2016
0 points
May 4, 2016
Jason Todd wrote:
It is fine. Safe, redundant, simple. Can anyone cite an actual, not theoretical, example of where two draws with opposite and opposed rope end carabiners came unclipped and caused the fall of a top roped climber?


I prefer to have lockers on my TR set ups, just because it's out of sight. But I'll admit the only problem with 2 draws I've ever seen is the leader setting it up wrong. And even then it probably wasn't going to fail.
Brian L.
Joined Feb 19, 2016
81 points
May 4, 2016
If we go with just the "not as safe as" rule, pretty soon walking up the stairs without holding onto the hand rail will be a chargeable offense.

On the other hand, what is good enough for me has relaxed a bit over the years. It is probably a good thing to start conservative and slowly / thoughtfully inch your way closer to the edge of the void.
Bill Lawry
From New Mexico
Joined Apr 16, 2006
1,718 points
May 4, 2016
it depends on the bolts/chain setup

a few years ago someone used 2 draws on a climb, the anchors were on a bit of a reverse slop over a hump

he comes down and a TRer goes up ...

half way up a soloist (who is free soloing a neighbouring route) shouts out "STOP YR ANCHOR IS COMING APART!!!" ....

basically with all the jiggling back and forth one of the draws had worked its way loose, and the other was looking like it was coming apart

so the soloist fixed it as best he could and phyisically held the draws in there so they didnt jiggle loose till the TRer got down

for anchors that are nice an level (chains, horizontal ring bolts) 2 draws is usually fine

however should the bolts be staggered, over the hump, or need to be extended ... built a proper anchor or at the very least use lockers on one of the draws

ive seen the rope or bolt come unclipped from one of the draws in less than "ideal" configurations ... after that you may have newbies who dont know any better TR banging on a single draw

;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
3,068 points
May 4, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Bottom of the bottle
OK by me.... sometimes we also leave the cord clipped to the last bolt.

Bearbreeder.... in your story... What do mean "your anchor is coming apart..."

.... worked its way loose...

explain if you can.
Guy Keesee
From Moorpark, CA
Joined Mar 1, 2008
363 points
May 4, 2016
Guy Keesee wrote:
OK by me.... sometimes we also leave the cord clipped to the last bolt. Bearbreeder.... in your story... What do mean "your anchor is coming apart..." .... worked its way loose... explain if you can.


draws over the edge on a reverse slope (slab top out) have a tendency to jiggle downwards in the other direction each time they are loaded and unloaded ...

remember that not all anchors are setup nice and horizontal on a face ...

out here many are setup over the hump, on reverse slopes, etc .... because of the sheer amount of slab topouts we have

even if the rope doesnt come out, theres a decent chance that one will have issues pulling up the rope on such setups because of the friction of the rope at the anchors if one uses short draws (which will capture the rope right on the slab with little play)

draws are fine when the anchors are nice, level and on a face ....

however when they get more complex, need to be extended, etc ....

to say that draws are ALWAYS OK, is just as bad as saying they are NEVER OK


as with everything else in climbing it depends on the situation

;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
3,068 points
May 5, 2016
lets not forget folks-

-a drone could hit your anchor and shred it

-an airplane could crash into your anchor and cut it

-lightning could strike the anchor and melt it

-a psycho could pour drain cleaner on your draws turning them into mush

most people around here use two 11mm static ropes and 4 lockers for their TR anchors

;)
T Roper
From DC,VA,NM,UT,CT,MA
Joined Mar 31, 2006
1,053 points
May 5, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Belaying 2nd (or was it 3rd? 4th?) on Turk's Head ...
Oh, God...now he's doing it too. The TS said this was specifically for TRing a sport route after leading it, not TR setups in general. Being that any decently bolted sport route is going to be setup so that the leader can clip 2 draws and lower, it's reasonable to assume that it will also be safe to TR off of it.

;)
Ted Pinson
From Chicago, IL
Joined Jul 11, 2014
178 points
May 5, 2016
Only issue I can possibly see is if the bolts are far apart and the draws sit at too high of an angle. Once you surpass 60 degrees you actually start stressing both anchor points more thna simply using a single draw. That being said, most sport climbs are bolted with the simply 2 draws method in mind. Also much more polite than tring through the rap rings, which you should never ever do! Have fun, stay safe, opposite and opposed is the name of the game. Jake C
Joined Dec 22, 2015
7 points
May 5, 2016
folks, lets not forget earthquakes and volcanic eruptions, those will affect sport and trad anchors.

;)
T Roper
From DC,VA,NM,UT,CT,MA
Joined Mar 31, 2006
1,053 points
May 5, 2016
Ted Pinson wrote:
Oh, God...now he's doing it too. The TS said this was specifically for TRing a sport route after leading it, not TR setups in general. Being that any decently bolted sport route is going to be setup so that the leader can clip 2 draws and lower, it's reasonable to assume that it will also be safe to TR off of it. ;)


actually NOTHING was mentioned in the OP about "sport" routes ....

Just wanted to know if it's common practice for leader at the top of a route to just use 2xstandard non-locking quickqraws to lower off and then use for top-roping other climbers? Or is this an unsafe practice.

and out here "sport" routes include bolted slab with ... you guessed it ... slabby top outs

T Roper wrote:
lets not forget folks- -a drone could hit your anchor and shred it -an airplane could crash into your anchor and cut it -lightning could strike the anchor and melt it -a psycho could pour drain cleaner on your draws turning them into mush most people around here use two 11mm static ropes and 4 lockers for their TR anchors ;)


lets not forget that a little MPing T ROPAH can simply be a little snarky troll on a post, contributing nutting ... cause he dun climb anyways


;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
3,068 points
May 5, 2016
Fraser32 wrote:
Just wanted to know if it's common practice for leader at the top of a route to just use 2xstandard non-locking quickqraws to lower off and then use for top-roping other climbers? Or is this an unsafe practice.


If I am lowering off, and only one other person is going to follow and clean, I consider this standard practice.

If this is for other climbers, I will prefer to use 4 lockers & a sling (or slings) to build a master-point anchor. 1. Just to be sure. 2. To keep the wear on my thick-metal lockers, rather than on my light-thin draw carabiners.
David Gibbs
From Ottawa, ON
Joined Aug 18, 2010
10 points
May 5, 2016
At the top of lead/sport climbing are there usually two anchors to hook into at the top or just one? And if you want atlest 2 points is it safe practice to use the second to last clip then the top to have atlest 2 points Jaredsup
From Donora
Joined May 4, 2016
0 points
May 5, 2016
Jared Suppo wrote:
At the top of lead/sport climbing are there usually two anchors to hook into at the top or just one? And if you want atlest 2 points is it safe practice to use the second to last clip then the top to have atlest 2 points


From this question, you need some mentorship and are probably not ready to lead. I know that sounds harsh, but if you haven't followed enough climbs to know the answer to your question, you're not ready.

Edit: I'm talking about outdoors, not at the gym.
FrankPS
From Atascadero, CA
Joined Nov 19, 2009
284 points
May 5, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Old Lady H
And, still be prepared for surprises at the anchors. Yesterday we discovered new anchors replacing old (yay, thank you) at a local climb we were familiar with, but nothing but anchors. Needed a smaller carabiner to work very well. Old lady H
From Boise, Idaho
Joined Aug 24, 2015
73 points
May 5, 2016
I have not done lead climbs other then in a climbing gym so I do not no what to expect that's why I asked the question. Jaredsup
From Donora
Joined May 4, 2016
0 points
May 5, 2016
Ted Pinson wrote:
any decently bolted sport route is going to be setup so that the leader can clip 2 draws and lower


This is just so wrong.
James Willis
From Evanston, IL
Joined May 14, 2013
116 points
May 5, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: goats yah
Jason Todd wrote:
Can anyone cite an actual, not theoretical, example of where two draws with opposite and opposed rope end carabiners came unclipped and caused the fall of a top roped climber?


When I was first getting into climbing several years back I personally experienced having one of the draws open and the rope running through only on of the anchor points. I didn't think much of it back then as I knew little of anchor mechanics and had trust in the friend who has taking me climbing. Now after formal training and several years of climbing I personally prefer having at least one locker in the system for TR; with that being said I rarely TR any more.
calebmmallory
From NC, Seattle, and Hong Kong
Joined Jun 5, 2015
379 points
May 5, 2016
Caleb isnt that an example of when the anchor worked? Thats why we have two draws. James Willis
From Evanston, IL
Joined May 14, 2013
116 points
May 5, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: goats yah
James Willis wrote:
Caleb isnt that an example of when the anchor worked? Thats why we have two draws.

Well, the system was no longer backed up, and part of it failed while not even being under load. You could say it worked had the anchor been loaded and the one draw failed; however the rope was unclipped after some untangling of the rope and properly orientating it. I should've described the situation more coherently. I personally believe that you should use at least one locker in any anchor system. Even one alpine routes I believe the additional weight is worth the peace of mind.
calebmmallory
From NC, Seattle, and Hong Kong
Joined Jun 5, 2015
379 points


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