TR- Shangri-La, Sedona
|
So let me start out by telling you about myself. I'm a climber of 20-years. With work I'm relegated to "weekend warrior" status. I'm pretty well-rounded but seem to gravitate towards enduro crack routes. I seek out pitches that are long and strenuous and require me to be on the rock for long periods of time. Naturally, I've found myself wandering the cliffs at Indian Creek where routes like this are numerous. |
|
Michael Sokoloff wrote:...To answer some of the pundits claims, this crack took great albeit small gear. I never felt in danger of a bad fall...If this is fairly objectively true, inform the first ascentionists and ask them as respectfully as possible if you can pull the bolts because those mo-fo's shouldn't be there in the first place! If they say "no," leave them alone: this climb is too beautiful to be the battlefield for a bolt war. If they say "yes," then get up there and do it (as long as you can do a good job and patch the holes). Maybe reuse the bolts by fixing the third pitch anchor as per my route description or return them to the FA party. Nice job on the headpoint! |
|
Strong work Mike! I heard you were heading down there to try it and I had no doubt you would pull it off. I havent climbed with you but you arent a reckless climber (hell you have a kid!)so I knew you had something there. Very exciting! |
|
Hey Josh |
|
Kick ass man! Good work! |
|
Nice job Mike! |
|
It was amazing to watch him.... I was partially apprehensive but also knew it could be done safely (and had known it since I did the route the first time with Lisa Appril). Following him, not only were his gear placements totally bomber, and for a wimp like me, you can supplement them with a few more BD 0 (green) C3's. For me, when I go back there, I fully intend to do it without the bolts since its a more beautiful line that way. |
|
Pernell |
|
Well hell, I'm out of the loop for a month and look what happens! Damn, strong work. I guess you just need to lead the Equalizer and Pacing the Cage and you'll be able to leave town with a clear conscience! Hope to hook up with you before you make the move. Sorry I can't get out tomorrow with you, Will, and Mark. Hope you guys crank. |
|
Don't forget Kindness...! |
|
I vote for leaving the bolts. I don't believe in preserving(retro-chopping) the route for only the bold elite to prove themselves on. If the gear being good and safe is the logic for removing the bolts, then using the same logic, why not add bolts to any existing trad route that has sketchy or no gear? Maybe add 5 bolts between each bolt on the Bachar Yerian(didn't some fool skip the bolts on this?Maybe we should take the bolts OUT), or maybe add some bolts to the crux of Jules Vern. The first-ascensionist gets to determine the style of life preservation. Climbing doesn't always have to be an attempt to improve style or one up the climbing community(not saying that you are Mike S). Shangri-La is a better route for more people with the bolts in place. Who's got that much tiny gear anyhow? Good ascent Mike. |
|
Personally, I vote to leave the route as is. If you walk up to a crack line and sew it up; great, no questions. If you repeat a route that has bolts and find a newer more clever way to do it, maybe you're just plain stronger, good for you. |
|
Colin Cox wrote:...using the same logic, why not add bolts to any existing trad route that has sketchy or no gear? Maybe add 5 bolts between each bolt on the Bachar Yerian... or maybe add some bolts to the crux of Jules Verne.Actually, this would be the exact opposite logic: The idea is to alter the rock as little as possible. Colin Cox wrote:The first-ascensionist gets to determine the style of life preservation. Climbing doesn't always have to be an attempt to improve style or one up the climbing community...I have mixed feelings on this. I think the first ascensionists do have that right, but Mike has clearly stated, and demonstrated, that the climb is SAFE without the bolts. In my opinion, the adding of bolts to a protectable crack is not a judgement call but a mistake (I'm making no claims about the intentions of the FA party, just calling it like I see it given Mike's feedback). Removing the bolts would not be about one-upping people, it's about correcting a mistake. Colin Cox wrote:Shangri-La is a better route for more people with the bolts in place.I totally disagree. Climbing gyms are better for more people with lots of bolts! There are plenty of safe climbs outdoors for most people. Shangri La apparently is one of them, even without the bolts (!) (although it's difficulty will keep novices away). The idea is to NOT DUMB DOWN the ROCK, DRILL HOLES in the ROCK, CHIP the ROCK, etcetera just because the masses don't own the gear, or have the skills to place the gear, or are too lazy to carry the gear. That goes for FA parties too. The FA party does have some rights. For example, just next to Shangri La is "Smell My Finger," a fully bolted route that is also quite safe. I have no issue with this climb. It doesn't take clean gear. If the FA party wanted to make it bold, they could have placed far fewer bolts. That would be their right, but they chose to make it safe and that's totally cool with me. What I do have issues with are bolts placed near good gear. This is an insult (perhaps unintentionally) to the rock, to future FA parties' intelligence and skill, and to the history of our sport and all those who came before. Creating routes like this is not good for the masses. Rather than demand something from the climber who lacks the skill to place gear, it just says, "it's OK you can't place or don't own or don't want to hike in with a bunch of C3's... just bring your quickdraws". This has absolutely nothing to do with boldness or having fun and everything to do with lazy complacency. Colin, I'm not trying to be ornery (I hope you don't take it that way!)... Hope you're well & hope the Peaks project is coming along! |
|
Josh do you really think that's what David and Rodman were doing out there: thinking of the masses and dumbing down a route? |
|
manuel rangel wrote:Josh do you really think that's what David and Rodman were doing out there: thinking of the masses and dumbing down a route? I like sedona rock. It is always changing. Just wait until a few folks get out and whip onto some teeny pro on the rock. It may hold as it did for Mike. And it may not. I think the guys didn't make a mistake, they knew what they were doing.I specifically said that I wasn't commenting on the FA party's intent, just that bolts near well-protected cracks are a mistake. If you look at my original comments on the huge thread under one of my photos for Shangri La, I actually started off by arguing your exact point about the nature of the rock in Sedona and this route in particular. It's been almost two years since I climbed Shangri La and my real intention here is not so much to comment on what, if anything, should be done about it, but rather to encourage people to challenge themselves to the highest standard of rock climbing and climb development possible. |
|
Great climb Mike! I have to agree with Manny on the bolting issue here. I'm no supporter of unnecessary bolts but I say why further damage the rock/sandstone? The point about leading this on gear without having had previously led it on bolts is valid too. I say leave it alone. The FA invests time, blood, sweat, and money on putting a route up. If we change all routes to represent some ideal of ethics then all routes would end up being the same. Do we really want that? |
|
1 vote for leave it as it is. |
|
Josh, I agree with you that bolts near well-protected cracks are a mistake. I missed your "no comment" about the FA intent. Sorry. |
|
Just a little perspective folks.Shangri-La has a long history. It was put up as a clean aid route in 1996. The idea to make it a free c limb came from Corey Ellison of Tucson(formerly Flag). He also put up Smell My Finger. It was Corey that bolted pitch 3, he passed the project along to me and Rodman. We knew someday that someone very strong would lead it all on gear, but back then(1998) it wasn't going to be us. My opinion is that the bolts should stay and if you wish do not clip them. It's not like just anybody can get on the route, you still have to climb 12a tips to get to the business. Although the rock on the route is exceptional for Sedona, I agree with Manny, placements could blow in the future. Also 10 years ago we didn't have c3's, and hardly anyone was climbing hard in Sedona. For the time I believe the first ascent style was reasonable, but removing and filling holes will not do this beautiful route the justice it deserves. Amazing accomplishment Michael, my hat is off to you. I know not everyone agrees and that's cool, diversity of opinion helps climbing in general. |
|
David, |
|
If the gear is truly good and won't damage the rock, then perhaps it was a "mistake" to bolt this pitch too soon. It's good to have high ideals as a guide, it's just that rock climbing is an irrational activity with inherent and contrived danger, and has spawned a wide range of styles from gym climbing to big wall soloing. I don't think anyone is in a position to declare the proper way to establish a route, because our sport defies logic and reason. The idealistic assertion that "altering the rock" is a sacrilege to nature and history may be a rushed and purely human conclusion, just as bolting this pitch may be. I think we can all live with each others rock climbing choices considering none of us have any business being up there in the first place. |