Top Rope Projecting - Opinion Please

So last weekend, my boyfriend and I were sport climbing at a local crag. This is the situation we faced: classic harder climb, 8 bolts, 70? ft of climbing, one person in front of us getting ready to climb… on top rope, no big deal, sounds great, we have not been on it before, maybe we can get some beta, we will wait. The next hour (if not longer) was excruciating. I honestly have no problem with people working something on top rope and taking their time, but this guy had no business on this route. I do not think he completed a move without falling, his belayer basically pulled him up, he made endless excuses for how slow he was being, and he sat there, hanging on the rope swearing he would finish. We stayed quiet and hung out patiently. Well I might have gone for a walk but we said nothing negative to the guy. His saving grace was that he offered to hang our draws for us when he finally got to the anchor; unfortunately he hung them all backwards…. doh! But whatever...So tell me MP, what are your thoughts on top rope projecting? Side note: my best friend thinks I am being pretentious for even commenting on this, but I honestly want to know, what is the general opinion about top rope projecting? Am I a dick for thinking that you should not jump grades just so you can say you “projected a classic -insert grade- climb”?

The other party was there first. You need to get there earlier, or be prepared to climb something else. It's that simple.

Nothing wrong with TR'ing a climb that's too hard for you.

He's on the route. Move on, or wait are your options. Happens all the time.

All true projects imo start on top rope. If you want to do something really hard that is outside what you can currently do than you aren't going to be leading it.

Once you get the moves down and figure out where to clip from you can try to lead it. If you are leading it from the start than it isn't really a project because it is probably well within your climbing ability.

I would much rather see people like that trying to do something that they can't than all the people I have run into who will not even try to climb a route because they think it is to hard.

Sux that you got there when someone else was working on a route hard for them that may have been easy for you, but that is just what can happen sometimes. I normally don't have a problem sharing ropes with others and if they want to run up the route I am working on i generally don't mind taking a break and letting them go up.

There's nothing wrong with toprope projecting; a LOT of harder trad climbs get done that way, and if it's a hard vertical climb that you don't have a shot at onsighting, it's the most efficient way to go.

But, if he really could not do even one or two moves without falling, the guy was out of his element, and not really projecting the route. I don't think you were being too pretentious in thinking that.

ViperScale wrote:All true projects imo start on top rope. If you want to do something really hard that is outside what you can currently do than you aren't going to be leading it.

Incorrect

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: Incorrect

he said IMO...

first come first serve is the rule if there are any, waiting for any sport line for an hour makes it seem like ... well... hit lists just arent my thing

Micah Klesick wrote:He's on the route. Move on, or wait are your options. Happens all the time.

+1. Fact of life at popular sport crags these days.
Perhaps you should tell us why you and your BF have your hearts so set on this particular climb.

FrankPS wrote:The other party was there first. You need to get there earlier, or be prepared to climb something else. It's that simple.

I disagree with this. This isn't a big route in the mountains, or even a grade III at the locale trad crag. The old ethic doesn't apply in my opinion. There is a thing called courtesy, or should be.

If people are waiting for a climb (especially a classic) and you're hanging all over it, take a reasonable amount of time and then come down and let them climb while you rest. Maybe you'll get some beta, and you'll certainly get some karma points.

As far as top-roping a project, I do it all the time. But I try not to clog-up a classic route for hours. Hell, I try to keep it reasonable even if no one is waiting out of respect for my belayer.

I think you should have climbed something else.

However, if you're engaged with the climber while he hangs pathetically, I think you could tactfully convey your desire to climb that route, and somehow imply that he has failed. "Perhaps it would be good to take a break and work on something else?!?"

Be tactfully direct, and/or move on. Sometimes people need someone to tell them how it is. Just don't be a dick.

I don't think it's necessarily appropriate to ask him to forfeit the route or say anything to him about the situation at all. By all accounts, it is his route and he can do whatever he wants now that he has it. Having said that, it's fucking bad form on his part. If there's people wanting to climb behind me I'm not going to sit up there and fucking hang dog my way up 70 feet over the course of the hour. It's one of those manner or etiquette type things. So, what I do is try and act according to how I would want others to act. It doesn't always reciprocate too well, but sometimes it does.
Good luck.

Its one of the reasons I like to climb in remote places. Not to avoid the top roper but to avoid the chronic complainer.

It's bad form to occupy a route you can't climb all day, lead or TR.

If you absolutely have to do this route today (because you're visiting and it's your last day or something) then explain your schedule issue and if they'd let you squeeze in a quick lead, you can even lead on his rope so all you need to do it pull it, lead and get lowered from his anchor.
But don't start hang-dogging the said route yourself.

Micah Klesick wrote:He's on the route. Move on, or wait are your options. Happens all the time.

This -- as long as people are actually climbing/flailing on it, rather than just sitting at the base eating lunch and talking.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:It's bad form to occupy a route you can't climb all day, lead or TR.

Yes, but it is indeed a personal choice. Were there really no other routes the OP could climb instead?

Pnelson wrote:But, if he really could not do even one or two moves without falling, the guy was out of his element, and not really projecting the route. I don't think you were being too pretentious in thinking that.

Just pretentious in asking about it on a climbing forum.

FrankPS wrote: Nothing wrong with TR'ing a climb that's too hard for you.

But here's the thing... I think there is something wrong with TR'ing or leading a climb that is TOO hard for you. Hard for you... fine, not a problem. "Too hard" is indicative that you need to put in more work to get to that level. Hang, fall, hang, fall, stick the crux move. Perfect, you worked the move. For me, hang and fall all day on every move and never successfully or actually completing a move (because your belayer is weighting the rope) means you probably need to work on your strength, endurance and technique and that this route is over your head. Hanging all day on a climb, working a climb that is too hard for you while other people are waiting, just seems inconsiderate. Save the climb for when you are ready to climb it, don't bum rush it because its a classic or because you want to be able to climb that grade one day, far in your future.

ebethreegs wrote: For me, hang and fall all day on every move and never successfully or actually completing a move

Funny - you're the second person on this thread to use the "all day" exaggeration. I doubt it's over an hour, or even a half hour.

Climbing is a subjective sport. There are a hundred different ways to do things. Everyone has their own style and their own opinions about ethics, technique, etc etc. You should have voiced all of your opinions to that climber if it bothered you so much. Just my $.02

At some crags it is quite legitimate to ask the person top-roping to pull their rope so that you can lead the route, I've done this at Joshua Tree based upon the ethics noted in the guide - however it was several people and they were all sitting around at the bottom of the route - so I felt justified.

Attempting to TR a lead which is obviously too hard for you is a complete waste of your time and energy, plus the time of people capable of leading the route waiting below. In fact you'd be better off letting the person below you lead it, as you'll get valuable beta for your attempt. It really comes down to the question of how well-mannered and attentive to the needs of others you are.