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Return From the Great Mormon Experience S 
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Time Share 

YDS: 5.12- French: 7a+ Ewbanks: 25 UIAA: VIII+ ZA: 25 British: E5 6a

Type:  Sport, 1 pitch, 75'
Original:  YDS: 5.12a French: 7a+ Ewbanks: 25 UIAA: VIII+ ZA: 25 British: E5 6a [details]
FA: Fred AmRhein*
Page Views: 1,015
Submitted By: Fred AmRhein on Nov 17, 2009

You & This Route  |  Other Opinions (8)
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BETA PHOTO: Time Share (January 2014)

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Starts out on a nice face. Gets crispy and has an interesting finish. (* FA info: This line on the Bartuni face was originally bolted by Greg Varela and Chad Cooper. I reconfigured it to its current form. FA)


Just to the right of Mona Lisa. (Time Share is misidentified in the 9-2008 Karabin guide. It should be #31 and Blisters in the Sun should be #32)


Bolts (7 or 8?)

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Comments displayed oldest to newestSkip Ahead to the Most Recent Dated Jan 18, 2017
By Peter Franzen
General Admin
From: Phoenix, AZ
Dec 11, 2011
rating: 5.12- 7a+ 25 VIII+ 25 E5 6a

Do you like clipping off of holds that flex visibly and crumble under your feet?
Do you enjoy the feeling of knocking on a flake with your hand and feeling it vibrate in your toes?
Do you enjoy drilled-out and comfortized pockets in the only decent rock on an entire route?

Well if so, is this ever the route for you! This is the chossiest rock I have experienced yet at this area. The first 30 feet are actually quite fun, but as soon as the rock changes from red to white it rapidly degrades into a loose, flakey, and decidedly un-fun experience.

What a piece of crap.
By Peter Franzen
General Admin
From: Phoenix, AZ
Dec 14, 2011
rating: 5.12- 7a+ 25 VIII+ 25 E5 6a

I should add that if you're really going to be pulling hard on this route the belayer should wear a helmet.
By Chris Bastek
Dec 19, 2011
rating: 5.12a/b 7b 26 VIII+ 26 E5 6a

Sorry to hear you had such a horrible experience on this route Peter. I've done it a half dozen times or so it didn't find it that chossy. I would agree that pulling hard on this route or it's neighbor Blisters in the Sun is not highly recommended. Definitely requires delicate face climbing for sure.
By Fred AmRhein
Apr 5, 2012


My friend, as the FA on this route, at least after reconfiguring it from what Chad and Greg had done years previous to my efforts, I have to correct some of your commentary.

For my part and those who aided me in putting this up over the days and weeks we worked on it, I cleaned off buckets of loose rock, creaky flakes, and short-timer pockets. I believe that Greg and Chad had done about as much if not more cleaning themselves. The first portion of the route is indeed good solid stuff and as far as I know, all natural.

Unfortunately, God, Nature, Yahweh or whatever force you'd like to conjure, did not provide such solid stuff up higher. It is what it is, welcome to the tough world of climbing on volcanic tuff, you think it's solid and yet the traffic of a few climbers loosens what's left and away it goes. (By the way, I could have glued or otherwise been creative with things like was done by others in the area, but that's not my way; if you knew me or had checked in with me you'd know this)

There was no comfortizing or manufacturing done on any pockets, edges, etc., by me, nor by Greg or Chad from what I know. If anything, I've had more people accuse me of a lack of cleaning off the poor pieces and of leaving too many sharp edges and/or pockets. My guess is that you are mistaking the soft, underlying pumice in the mid-section for comforting, but that's just my guess. Years of traffic in those areas that are softer could also create a more comfortable feel to things, again, just a guess at your experience and view.

Certainly not the best route, but you might want to reconsider your characterizations until you have the facts; or at least have heard from those who have taken the time to work on putting up a route or two in this area and are better informed.


By Jimbo
Apr 6, 2012

Hey Peter, how many new routes have you done? Guys like Fred and I are more than happy for you to start putting up new routes so you can show us how it should be done.

You better make sure your new route is perfect in every way otherwise someone might tear you a new ass because he or she didn't like it.

By 1Eric Rhicard
Apr 7, 2012

Other than accusing the FA team of drilling pockets I think it is a more colorful way to make a comment. I would definitely pull the drilled pocket part. Also good to remember we are on real rock here not plastic. They cannot all be great Fred. Keep at it.
By Fred AmRhein
Apr 14, 2012

I was just adding some background and wanted to make sure that if somebody read the drilling/comfortizing assertions by Peter that my view and actions were at least provided for balance.

Also, the name "Time Share" seemed appropriate because the line that I chose to configure shared some of Greg and Chad's line to some extent. The name was meant as a respectful way to address this. The actual name came up because of a hand/foot match move on the "bear" scar that I used about 1/3 of the way up.

No worries, no stress, just trying to provide some background given the commentary.

By C.C.
May 28, 2012

Just an update on this route. It was first bolted and abandoned by Greg Varela and Todd Molitoris. Not me Chad Cooper.

Fred, that is awesome that you finished this line. As for the pin head that is claiming Fred or Greg manufactured holds. You have probably never meet Greg or Fred. Greg and I climbed,traveled and bolted routes for MANY years. We DON'T manufacture. Example, Road area to the right of Scorpion, I bolted it, it was to hard and left it. If we manufactured holds it would have been climbed by now and have several holes drilled in it!!

I have met Fred on several occasions back in the day and climbed many of his routes....he doesn't manufacture.

I bet you think, "El gato grande de amour" is drilled to??

Before spewing yourself all over everyone. Why don't you get a grip and try to talk to the route creator.
By Fred AmRhein
Nov 24, 2012

Thanks for the info Chad; I guess my research on it via Greg wasn't quite accurate. Apologies for the errors. by the way, if you get a chance, add Return from the Ultimate Mormon Experience down at the lower pond to the list; awesome route and one of yours too as I recall?

By Hugo Almanza
From: Tucson, Arizona
Feb 8, 2013
rating: 5.12- 7a+ 25 VIII+ 25 E5 6a

I jumped on this route yesterday and it was a blast, unfortunately I didn't get it clean. There is some looseness but to be quite honest it added some fun character to the route. Definite delicate face climbing reminiscent of some of the phx granite climbs nearby, yet with a mix of good gymnastic prowess involved as well. If you haven't tried it, I would definitely recommend it, have fun and be safe!
By Tim Heid
From: AZ
Jan 12, 2016
rating: 5.12a/b 7b 26 VIII+ 26 E5 6a

I agree with Hugo- felt more like a technical Phoenix granite route than a Queen Creek pocket fest, which was a nice change of pace for the area.

Really fun movement, but unfortunately pretty poor rock in the upper section. Aside from the little flakes and edges coming off, the big thank-god jug right after the crux sounds really hollow. It's a pretty good size, so I'd be weary yarding on it.
By Will Wright
From: Phoenix
Jan 18, 2017
rating: 5.12 7b+ 27 VIII+ 26 E6 6b

In 2025 it will be a good route.

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