Route Guide    Journal    What's New    Partners    Forum        
Sign Up  |   Log In:Login with Facebook
REI Community
The deadly ATC
View Latest Posts in This Forum or All Forums
Page 2 of 17.  <<First   <Prev   1  2  3  4  5   Next>   Last>>
Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
 
Dec 4, 2016
Ranivorous Troglodyte wrote:
^ +1 edlerid mega jul. I feel much safer when I'm leading and my belayer has this device. Belayer could be unconscious and I would still be safe. Also, cost only $30-35 and super light weight.

Ehhhh... maybe. My regular partner uses the MegaJul and Jul 2, and if I do a yank test when her hand isn't on the rope, the rope often sails right through with no resistance.

I just put on my harness and grabbed my gym rope (a Trango 9.9) for a few quick yank tests with no tension on the brake strand:
Grigri 1 (not even rated for this rope!): locks every time
Grigri 2: locks every time
Mad Rock Lifeguard (Grigri copy): locks every time
Mammut Smart (I honestly hate this thing): locks every time
MegaJul: fails to lock about 60% of the time
Jul 2: fails to lock about 40% of the time

I don't feel unsafe being belayed with these devices, but they're not 100% in the unconscious/dead/irresponsible belayer case.
Noah Yetter
From Lakewood, CO
Joined Jul 13, 2015
5 points
Dec 4, 2016
my gym doesn't even allow Gri gris...because they feel it leads to a false sense of security. For light belayers/heavier climbers, they have bolted anchors which they encourage you to lock into. So the belayer doesn't go for a swing into the wall.

Though reading some of these threads, a gri gri seems a good choice for outdoors as just an extra layer of precaution if the belayer is momentarily distracted. But it still seems an attentive belayer is the safest?
Nyte Knight
Joined Oct 6, 2016
0 points
Administrator
Dec 4, 2016
Nyte Knight wrote:
my gym doesn't even allow Gri gris...because they feel it leads to a false sense of security. For light belayers/heavier climbers, they have bolted anchors which they encourage you to lock into. So the belayer doesn't go for a swing into the wall. Though reading some of these threads, a gri gri seems a good choice for outdoors as just an extra layer of precaution if the belayer is momentarily distracted. But it still seems an attentive belayer is the safest?

I've climbed at a gym where you're required to use a GriGri because they dont trust the ATC. Like usual, people are blaming the device instead of focusing on the real problem. If your gym doesent think people can belay safely with the GriGri, they should take a look at their own staff who are supposedly qualifying people as safe after they pass their belay test. As has been said a million times, it's the person not the device.
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
1,123 points
Dec 4, 2016
Full disclosure - I prefer ATC to grigri. That said, the logic here seems to be that if belayer is knocked unconscious, I am safe because the grigri will auto-lock? But does not that also mean I cannot move in any direction that requires more rope? How am I safer, especially on lead, if I am now stuck in one location or am I missing something here? Paul Deger
Joined Sep 15, 2015
20 points
Dec 4, 2016
Although the possibility of an unconscious belayer is cause for concern, what happens in reality indicates that a conscious belayer is far more dangerous. rgold
From Poughkeepsie, NY
Joined Feb 15, 2008
40 points
Dec 5, 2016
Paul Deger wrote:
But does not that also mean I cannot move in any direction that requires more rope? How am I safer, especially on lead, if I am now stuck in one location or am I missing something here?


Yes, you are missing something. You are not stuck.

If you are above a bolt or piece, you can move down (downclimb). If you have fallen below a bolt, you can move up.
FrankPS
From Atascadero, CA
Joined Nov 19, 2009
15 points
Dec 5, 2016
FrankPS wrote:
Yes, you are missing something. You are not stuck. If you are above a bolt or piece, you can move down (downclimb). If you have fallen below a bolt, you can move up.

And then when you get to the bolt or piece you can fix the rope to it and rappel back to your partner. Even if you were stuck, in most cases, that seems far preferable to being dead, no?
Kedron Silsbee
From Princeton, NJ
Joined Aug 28, 2013
0 points
Dec 5, 2016
rgold wrote:
Although the possibility of an unconscious belayer is cause for concern, what happens in reality indicates that a conscious belayer is far more dangerous.

Conscious but not fully sentient.
Jason Young
From Los Alamos, NM
Joined Jul 20, 2009
1,000 points
Dec 5, 2016
FrankPS wrote:
Yes, you are missing something. You are not stuck. If you are above a bolt or piece, you can move down (downclimb). If you have fallen below a bolt, you can move up.


Good points - and I suspect there are times when moving up past last bolt or lateral could be the safer choice. In the end, I agree it is how the belayer uses a device and not the device that makes me safe most of the time compared to the rarity that a belayer becomes incapacitated.

Just stumbled across this old thread: mountainproject.com/v/another-...
Paul Deger
Joined Sep 15, 2015
20 points
Dec 5, 2016
I've graduated from the hip belay through the Sticht plate to the DMM Pivot and am most comfortable with the latter. Generally, I would prefer the belayer use whatever device with which he or she is most comfortable and competent: GriGri-type or ATC-type. Competency is key. However, once the Wild Country REVO comes out sometime this next year, I might very well get one of those things, too, for certain circumstances. Seems like it has some very positive attributes (although someone will surely still figure out a way to drop a climber with it). Daniel Joder
From Boulder, CO
Joined Nov 9, 2015
0 points
Administrator
Dec 6, 2016
rgold wrote:
Although the possibility of an unconscious belayer is cause for concern, what happens in reality indicates that a conscious belayer is far more dangerous.


Ha! Love it!
Morgan Patterson
Joined Oct 13, 2009
8,157 points
Dec 6, 2016
dino74 wrote:
I've seen two indoor full on (50ft) decks in the last year. Fortunately both climbers were okay. One with a GriGri and one with an ATC.


Can you describe how someone decked with GriGri? And how with the ATC?


dino74 wrote:
I saw this couple leading indoors and he out weighed her by many pounds. When he fell, she got pulled up to the first draw and completely let go of the device. Fortunately, she was using an GriGri and it locked.


This anecdote make a strong argument for the GriGri.
JohnnyG
Joined Nov 30, 2009
0 points
Dec 6, 2016
JohnnyG wrote:
Can you describe how someone decked with GriGri? And how with the ATC? This anecdote make a strong argument for the GriGri.



It makes a stronger case for having a ground anchor when belaying a substantially heavier climber.
Fueco
From Boulder, CO
Joined Oct 30, 2015
256 points
Dec 6, 2016
I once insisted that someone use a Grigri when they weren't familiar with it. The belayer held his thumb over the lever too hard and dropped me a significant distance to the ground. Lessoned learned, don't force a grigri on someone who is used to belaying with an atc. Now I say 'use whatever you are most comfortable with." Kevin DB
Joined Jul 28, 2012
200 points
Dec 6, 2016
Kevin DB wrote:
I once insisted that someone use a Grigri when they weren't familiar with it. The belayer held his thumb over the lever too hard and dropped me a significant distance to the ground. Lessoned learned, don't force a grigri on someone who is used to belaying with an atc. Now I say 'use whatever you are most comfortable with."


climbing friend,

get someone who they are knowing what it is they are doing, and has experience and belays with the holy grigri, and you will not be decking like with most deadly ATC.

For obvious it is quite foolish to give someone with no idea what they are doing or little experience a device and expect it to solve your decking problems.
Aleks Zebastian
From Boulder, CO
Joined Jul 3, 2014
0 points
Dec 6, 2016
Noah Yetter wrote:

"MegaJul: fails to lock about 60% of the time
Jul 2: fails to lock about 40% of the time"


Interesting. I don't know what's up with the jul 2 (never tried it) but using the mega jul hundreds of times it locks every time for me. Mostly 10.2mm rope. But many times on 9.8mm and never had any locking problems.

Im wary of statistics too, for example to get an accurate 40% One would have to test 100 times... or 50 x 2 at least. But if I started doing that I would end up saying in my head "Dude you got too much time on your hands...get to the crag..." haha.

I don't want to throw out false info to the community, speaking only out of my experience alone.

Either way IMHO the Edelrid Mega Jul is a great alternative to the ATC, and only costs twice as much as an ATC. Lowering really isn't that bad IMHO ( just takes getting used to ) and I've intentionally gone hands free a few feet off the deck (about 10-15 times) after rapping to test the lock off ability while rapping. Locked every time. Another great safety feature of this belay device. A lot of accidents happen rappelling.
Ranivorous Troglodyte
From Lake Forest, CA
Joined Apr 28, 2015
735 points
Dec 6, 2016
I'll just leave this here - the most relevant quotes in this thread.

patto wrote:
Fools will outsmart any 'foolproof' device. The best answer is to not climb with fools belaying you...


rgold wrote:
Although the possibility of an unconscious belayer is cause for concern, what happens in reality indicates that a conscious belayer is far more dangerous.


Aleks wrote:
get someone who they are knowing what it is they are doing, and has experience and belays with the Holy grigri... for obvious it is quite foolish to give someone with no idea what they are doing or little experience a device and expect it to solve your decking problems.


Expanded; all of the devices work as intended, and all that use them should have a very good understanding of said device's features, functions, and possible attributes to failure.

You are only human, and humans are prone to mistakes... not the device, unless not inspected for potential cracks, wear, etc., or unknown manufacturing defects. Damn, humans again!

Edit to add:
Excuse me, Aleks, but a small change was needed in your quote, in bold. Pray things go well.
BigFeet
From Texas
Joined May 5, 2014
0 points
Dec 7, 2016
Aleks, do you have any experience with the СУ «ФЕДЯ-ДУБЛЬ» складной стандартный

Someone posted a GEAR4ROCKS question and and I found what appears to be a high quality, all steel double grigri! Russian Gri Gri?


Rock Climbing Photo: More safe than the deadly ATC, no?
More safe than the deadly ATC, no?
Matt Stroebel
From Lakewood, OH
Joined Apr 19, 2011
40 points
Dec 7, 2016
I've been puzzled over the years about the lack of enthusiasm among the assisted-braking crowd for the CT Alpine Up. It handles intuitively, does most of what the other gadgets do, only better, and doesn't seem to be afflicted with the kinds of arcane gotcha's that characterize devices like the Grigri, Smart, and Jul that require you (at least some of the time) to disable braking in order to pump slack.

The Up doesn't work well with thick fuzzy ropes and so isn't an option for many gyms and for some sport climbers; maybe that's part of the problem. But there is also the single-rope Click-up version (you lose the ability to rappel and use double rope systems) that I think tolerates rope thickness better.
rgold
From Poughkeepsie, NY
Joined Feb 15, 2008
40 points
Dec 7, 2016
rgold wrote:
Although the possibility of an unconscious belayer is cause for concern, what happens in reality indicates that a conscious belayer is far more dangerous.


Very well put...
Stagg54 Taggart
Joined Dec 12, 2006
0 points
Dec 7, 2016
rgold wrote:
I've been puzzled over the years about the lack of enthusiasm among the assisted-braking crowd for the CT Alpine Up. It handles intuitively, does most of what the other gadgets do, only better, and doesn't seem to be afflicted with the kinds of arcane gotcha's that characterize devices like the Grigri, Smart, and Jul that require you (at least some of the time) to disable braking in order to pump slack. The Up doesn't work well with thick fuzzy ropes and so isn't an option for many gyms and for some sport climbers; maybe that's part of the problem. But there is also the single-rope Click-up version (you lose the ability to rappel and use double rope systems) that I think tolerates rope thickness better.


I'm not sure either, but here's my reasons though why it is not an all in one belay device for me. (A lot of this you probably already know, so forgive me if I'm telling you things you already know)

When the Alpine Up is used in brake assisted mode with a single rope no matter the thickness, it will not lock up on a fall unless there is some resistance on the brake strand. I tested this in the gym over pads with several thicknesses of ropes with the same results. So for me with a single rope this rules it out as a good device to keep the climber on belay and held in place if the belayer for some reason is not able to hold the brake strand. I'm talking emergency situations here, not belaying incompetency. Perhaps the Click Up performs differently? But then you can't double strand rappel or top belay so it rules that out for outdoor climbing in anything but top roping and sport lead belaying where you don't need to rappel.

I imagine with your half ropes this is not a problem. I did find on one double strand rappel where I came to a large ledge and had to walk sideways to the next rappel anchor, that upon opening the lock in the Alpine Up and putting tension on the rope by walking towards the next anchor that it went right back into lock mode without my hand holding intentional downward resistance on the brake strand. So it makes sense that it probably needs two strands of rope in it to go into brake assisted mode without holding the brake strand.

The other piece of this is that it is the most complex belay device I own. It's not a big deal once you've read the manual and worked with it. But it's not something anyone is going to necessarily figure out without reading the manual anyways. (Which I never recommend)

That being said, it is my favorite device for top belaying and rappelling. There is no other dual rope belay device out there that I'm aware of that can easily and gradually lower the second on top belay. Maybe with the possible exception of the DMM Pivot that I have not tried. And rappelling on it in brake assisted mode is wonderful and easy as long as you don't use it in facilitated mode where it twists the ropes unless the ends are free hanging.

So it's kind of a niche device. If you want it to be an all in one device you need to be using half or twin ropes which I don't use yet. So for top rope or lead belaying I use a Mammut Alpine Smart Belay.
anotherclimber
Joined Apr 4, 2016
0 points
Dec 7, 2016
rgold wrote:
I've been puzzled over the years about the lack of enthusiasm among the assisted-braking crowd for the CT Alpine Up. It handles intuitively, does most of what the other gadgets do, only better, and doesn't seem to be afflicted with the kinds of arcane gotcha's that characterize devices like the Grigri, Smart, and Jul that require you (at least some of the time) to disable braking in order to pump slack. The Up doesn't work well with thick fuzzy ropes and so isn't an option for many gyms and for some sport climbers; maybe that's part of the problem. But there is also the single-rope Click-up version (you lose the ability to rappel and use double rope systems) that I think tolerates rope thickness better.


climbing friend,

if your climbing friend bro at the gym and your 5.13 climbing friend at rifle does not utilize it, the others they will not utilize it.
Aleks Zebastian
From Boulder, CO
Joined Jul 3, 2014
0 points
Dec 7, 2016
For those interested in an alpine up 24% off with free shipping

everestgear.com/cltealbede.htm...
beensandbagged
From R.I.
Joined Oct 20, 2013
0 points
Dec 7, 2016
rgold wrote:
I've been puzzled over the years about the lack of enthusiasm among the assisted-braking crowd for the CT Alpine Up. It handles intuitively, does most of what the other gadgets do, only better, and doesn't seem to be afflicted with the kinds of arcane gotcha's that characterize devices like the Grigri, Smart, and Jul that require you (at least some of the time) to disable braking in order to pump slack. The Up doesn't work well with thick fuzzy ropes and so isn't an option for many gyms and for some sport climbers; maybe that's part of the problem. But there is also the single-rope Click-up version (you lose the ability to rappel and use double rope systems) that I think tolerates rope thickness better.


The problems are;-
It is large, relatively heavy, expensive and tries to do too many things at once. The instructions are like a comic version of War and Peace in their length and complexity.
It fails to do most things better than a judicious selection of other devices do and the only area it stands out over other devices is the effectiveness of the assisted braking with twin/double ropes IF that is a requirement. Mine stays at home along with the other "wierd" devices.
It´s unnatractiveness stems from attempting to do everything and mostly doing nothing paticularly well.
Jim Titt
From Germany
Joined Nov 10, 2009
0 points
Dec 7, 2016
Haha, there we have the opposite point of view folks, from someone who's actually tested a lot of belay devices!

It is true, I use mine with 8.5mm half ropes, and shouldn't have suggested that it is good for other situations.
rgold
From Poughkeepsie, NY
Joined Feb 15, 2008
40 points


Follow replies to this topic? Notify me at the top of web site.
1

Email me.
Page 2 of 17.  <<First   <Prev   1  2  3  4  5   Next>   Last>>