Stickclipping a redpoint attempt

Wondering thoughts of other climbers: is it ok on a redpoint attempt to stickclip the first or second bolt if that potential fall is dangerous? If it isn't ok, what is the difference really when draws are pre-hung? If one stickclips, is it still a redpoint?

Yes. It's sport climbing. The point of sport climbing is to climb as hard as you can without the fear of serious consequences. Minimizing risk and focusing on the climb is what sport climbing is all about. Why should you care then if you clipped the first bolt or not?

I don't like it. I like hanging my draws as I go, but really, I don't care what gives you your jollies. Just be honest about it. I've stick clipped a couple of routes with low cruxes with bad falls, but didn't count the redpoint until I hung them myself.

Also, nobody can tell you what climbing is about to you. You have to figure that out.

You will get the gamut of opinions on this(and links to previous runs down this path) but it really comes down to what you can sleep with at night. Since hanging the draw can add relevant difficulty, it is worth considering to many and also worth drawing a distinction in the ascent style (hence pink, red, etc -point). I agree with csproul that sport climbing is almost 100% about the climbing. So if the draws are hung.. eh, whatever - you did it clean. But again, some folks will balk and scoff at the mere idea of calling your "clean", pre-hung draw ascent a redpoint. And if that really bothers you, then you can haul the draws up and do it in ub3r clean style.. then sleep like a bear (babies don't sleep that well).

FIDO, have fun, etc!

The term "pinkpointing" is only applicable to trad climbing; trying to apply this concept to sport climbing is a major case of "missing the point." Pre-hung draws and a stickclipped first bolt are a totally acceptable part of a sport redpoint. If you use a 40 foot stickclip and pre-clip the 5th bolt, that is another matter, but the first bolt or two is totally OK. Be safe, pull hard.

Daryl Allan wrote: some folks will balk and scoff at the mere idea of calling your "clean", pre-hung draw ascent a redpoint.

And those folks are likely clueless gumbies.

Jon Moen wrote: And those folks are likely clueless gumbies.

Actually, I think that comment is more likely to come from the well-established older climbers...

the real questions are; Will this turn into a complete debate on sport vs. trad before page two? If you stick clip the whole route will it be considered top roping? Could Ondra do it?

I like Andrew's comment regarding the murder of the impossible, where he wrote: "I like to pull all the hangers off the bolts before my redpoint attempts. Then you get the fun of putting them back on and hanging your draws on lead."

As even more of a purest than Andrew, I only consider a lead of a sport climb as a redpoint if I chop each bolt on lead and then redrill and place a new bolt in its place, then hang the draw and make the clip.

Seriously though. To each their own. The only real travesty in leading a sport route is misreporting the style of ascent.

johnL wrote: Again, I've never met this contingent in the real world.

That's because they are furiously watching your heathen antics and simmering with rage which they will release onto the internet when they get home.

johnL wrote: I've actually been hoping all fall to get home on Monday to find a rant about my weekend antics online. I have yet to find such a gem. I will keep trying.

I recommend "clucking" (as in the infamous video) at a crowded crag. That will get some online posts...and maybe a spot on the sex offender list.

johnL wrote: In my real life experience, not the people spouting on the interwebs, I find this to be untrue. The well-established older climbers either recognize that they are sport climbing and thus, sport climb when they are out sport climbing OR they don't like sport so they don't go sport climbing.

Well said.

I happened to be at a sport crag outside of Boulder a few years back, and there were two legendary Stonemasters (I'm not going to drop names, but if ever there were a couple of people who defined "trad climber", it was these two) fucking around on a couple of drilled-out and over-bolted climbs. They recognized the activity for what it was, and they were having a great time.

Like someone said above: if you're pre-clipping the 5th bolt then you might want to re-examine your methods and climbing ethics, but don't let anyone talk you out of protecting yourself from a groundfall.

csproul wrote:Yes. It's sport climbing. The point of sport climbing is to climb as hard as you can without the fear of serious consequences. Minimizing risk and focusing on the climb is what sport climbing is all about. Why should you care then if you clipped the first bolt or not?

Right. Toproping is the same thing as leading.

many of you who are against stick clipping the first bolt have probably never led anything above .11 with a high possibility of a dangerous ground fall. In Smith Rock it is encouraged by many to stick clip the first bolt on climbs at your limit. It is still considered a red point. If you don't agree then get around

Josh Kornish wrote:many of you who are against stick clipping the first bolt have probably never led anything above .11 with a high possibility of a dangerous ground fall. In Smith Rock it is encouraged by many to stick clip the first bolt on climbs at your limit. It is still considered a red point. If you don't agree then get around

I'm a little disappointed in MP that it took 19 posts before someone brought up the 'you don't climb hard enough' argument.

Larry wrote: Right. Toproping is the same thing as leading.

It essentially is...if you're not scared of a legitimately safe sport fall. In many instances TRing a steep sport climb is harder than leading it. Again, it's sport climbing, no one cares how hard you can clip, it is all about how hard you can climb.

muttonface wrote:Pinkpointing is an obsolete term. ... Does anyone pre-place gear on routes and then lead them as if they were sport routes?

Pinkpointing isn't an obsolete term; it just was never meant to be applied to sport climbing.

As per it original usage (i.e. Kurt Albert, Frankenjura, circa late 70s/early 80s (not certain of exact timing)), "redpointing" refers to leading a (generally bolted) route, without weighting the gear, after having worked the route previously. There is a whole story to how the phrase came about; look it up, it is kind of cool. Presence of pre-placed gear, in this usage, isn't really relevant to whether it is a redpoint. In modern sport climbing, the term "redpoint" refers to basically the same thing as it did in its original Frankenjura usage.

The term "pinkpoint" is an American coinage. When Americans went to the Frakenjura, they picked up the redpoint concept, and the word, and brought it home to apply to their mediocre American sport crags. They also began to apply the redpoint concept to gear protected routes, supplanting the then-popular yo-yo style. The problem is, we value the placement of gear on lead on a gear protected route, so a term was needed to differentiate a redpoint with pre-paced gear from a redpoint placing all gear on lead. Hence the pinkpoint concept, which connotes a watered-down, somewhat effeminate redpoint.

These terms were fine, except that they led to some confusion among the uninitiated. A redpoint, in sport climbing, still means the same thing that is always has. On gear protected routes in the US, though, the term redpoint means something different, since it requires placement of gear on lead; otherwise it is a pinkpoint. Like in much of langauge, the same word means different things based on context.

The confusion seen earlier in this thread comes about when people forget the context, and apply the gear-route concept of "redpoint" to the original, sport-route.

Also note that I deliberately avoided referring to redpoint or pinkpointing a "trad" route, since there is nothing "traditional" (at least in the context of american trad climbing) about these concepts. They are a euro-import, and a fairly recent bastardization of a euro-import, respectively.

I've bolted routes where the crux is within the first twenty feet. I feel that a route where the crux is making a clip to be somewhat unaesthetic. It is on a route such as this that I've intentionally placed the first bolt up high with the intention that subsequent climbers would want to stick clip the first bolt.
If someone wants to highball boulder it to the first clip, good for them, but since sport climbing by its very nature accentuates the gymnastic difficulty while eliminating the danger, I felt that bolting these few routes with a stick clip in mind to be of service to the majority of the sport climbing community.

Andrew Haag wrote: Minimizing risk? It's sport climbing for christ's sake. The most dangerous part of a climb is lowering. Read the statistics. If you think you are safer stick clipping or top roping all your climbs, then your sence of safety is nothing more than a figment of your imagination. If you stick clip, you do it for a false sence of security, or you do it to avoid the extra motions wich does save energy. The only reason to hang drwas and stick clip would be for ease of climbing. It has no saftey benefits.

i'm thinking you haven't climbed at too many areas, or for very long, or very hard, or perhaps all of the above.... most people won't need a stick clip for a 5.8 or 5.9. when you are on a steep start with shit holds and talus under you, a stick clip kind of comes in handy...

Andrew Haag wrote: Minimizing risk? It's sport climbing for christ's sake. The most dangerous part of a climb is lowering. Read the statistics. If you think you are safer stick clipping or top roping all your climbs, then your sence of safety is nothing more than a figment of your imagination. If you stick clip, you do it for a false sence of security, or you do it to avoid the extra motions wich does save energy. The only reason to hang drwas and stick clip would be for ease of climbing. It has no saftey benefits.

Although you are correct that lowering is the most dangerous part of single pitch climbing, especially in terms of risking serious injury/death, this doesn't neagate the broken-ankle risk associated with falling off before the first bolt and landing on a blocky landing. In a lot of circumstances, stick clipping isn't necessary to climb a route safely, but in some cases it is. A few routes come to mind at Waimea (Rumney) and at Chek (north of Squamish) that have tricky intro moves above a spikey death-talus landing. Stick clip definitely necessary to avoid talus-impalement.

Skipping the stick clip, on a rap bolted route that is set up with stick-clipping in mind, doesn't make you more pure or a badass; it just means that you are being a fool.

Andrew Haag wrote: Thats like saying freeways diddnt exist until the Corvette was made. Pretty sure people were sport climbing way before .12c was even thought of. What should we call all the bolt protected routes .12c and ez'r. Vertical crawling?

i'd say 12a, but basically agree.