Slippery knot with fifi two man team

So I had a few questions:

Background:
I am interested in using the petzl fifi hook with slippery knot for docking the haul bag so I can short fix a pitch and start the next. This way the second can start cleaning the first and leave the bag at the belay for me to haul later on the second pitch anchors. I saw Mark Hudon's video on the slippery knot and found it to be super helpful. I also noticed that he used a caribiner to start the slipery knot. In the above scenario, if both people have left the belay, there would be no one to get the biner after the bag is plucked off the anchor. I expect the total weight of the haulbag + ledge to weigh about 175 lbs.

Question:

1. Is there a way to resolve the issue of leaving a biner?

2. Is it sketchy to not backup the haulbag with slippery knot? The petzl fifi only holds 2 kN I believe.

It is unlikely that you will reach the 2nd belay before the cleaner reaches the 1st belay unless the 2nd pitch is easy free climbing. So, I'm not sure it will often happen.

So an alternative is
1. tie bag off to first belay when you reach it with butterfly
2. cleaner uses far end haul to lift bags if there is slack
3. on reaching belay cleaner sets up mini-haul to release the butterfly and you haul from upper belay

....or one of numerous relatively similar alternatives.

I was trying to figure that out before I soloed Iron Hawk. I wanted to leave the bag on a lower anchor and haul it off after climbing two pitches.
I can't remember exactly but the slippery can be done on a sling and the sling can be attached to the haul bag. You pop the slippery knot, haul up the bag and the bag pulls the sling through the hangers and, Voila! nothing is left behind.

Andrew Hancox wrote:So I had a few questions: Background: I am interested in using the petzl fifi hook with slippery knot for docking the haul bag so I can short fix a pitch and start the next. This way the second can start cleaning the first and leave the bag at the belay for me to haul later on the second pitch anchors. I saw Mark Hudon's video on the slippery knot and found it to be super helpful. I also noticed that he used a caribiner to start the slipery knot. In the above scenario, if both people have left the belay, there would be no one to get the biner after the bag is plucked off the anchor. I expect the total weight of the haulbag + ledge to weigh about 175 lbs. Question: 1. Is there a way to resolve the issue of leaving a biner? 2. Is it sketchy to not backup the haulbag with slippery knot? The petzl fifi only holds 2 kN I believe.

I cant comment on the slippery knot as I've never used it. However, if you're going dock the bag with a fifi or similar device, dont connect the haul line directly to your haul loop. If the bag comes off (it has happened), and the haul line is connected to you via haul loop, you could die. Instead connect it via a piece of 1mm cord or attach it to a gear loop that way if the bag comes off you wont get pulled down with it.

Mark Hudon wrote:I was trying to figure that out before I soloed Iron Hawk. I wanted to leave the bag on a lower anchor and haul it off after climbing two pitches. I can't remember exactly but the slippery can be done on a sling and the sling can be attached to the haul bag. You pop the slippery knot, haul up the bag and the bag pulls the sling through the hangers and, Voila! nothing is left behind.

^cool trick!

20 kN wrote: I cant comment on the slippery knot as I've never used it. However, if you're going dock the bag with a fifi or similar device, dont connect the haul line directly to your haul loop. If the bag comes off (it has happened), and the haul line is connected to you via haul loop, you could die. Instead connect it via a piece of 1mm cord or attach it to a gear loop that way if the bag comes off you wont get pulled down with it.

Nice. I'll start using this when I'm soloing.

Go get a Petzl Fifi and fill a pack with 50 pound of gear or rocks or whatever. Hang it on your climbing wall from a bolt hanger, preferably in a free hanging position. Now, TRY with all might to knock it off. Kick it, push it, spin it, go freaking nuts.
Unless things really, really go bad (a 7.9 earthquake) you will not be able to knock the bag off the bolt.

Want to make it even harder to knock off?

From the bolt, double a shoulder length sling and hang the hook on that. Now, the sling acts as a pivot on the bolt and the hook never moves on a bit.

Everyone will say, "Yeah, but Tommy Caldwell." Well, Tommy was using a BD fifi set up to be able to be pulled off an anchor. A BD fifi has that little eye on top that you tie a sling into and then attache that to the rope so when the pull comes, the hook does not rotate but stays upright and pulls cleanly off the anchor. What happened to Tommy was that he had the rope piled on a ledge and as he moved away he pulled the rope off the ledge. The weight of the falling rope was enough to rotate the BD fifi off the anchor and cause the pack to fall.

A Petzl Fifi

Petzl Fifi.

Notice the slot where the mallon attaches to the Fifi. If Tommy had been using a Petzl Fifi the force of the falling rope would have hit the hook in a downward pull and the hook would have stayed put. A similar thing happened to me when I was soloing ZM. I was 30 feet away on a traverse and I watched as the rope spilled out of the rope bag, pop out all of the slippery knot and slam onto the Petzl Fifi. The bag stayed put and nothing happened.

I'm certainly not arguing against a Slippery Knot, just trying to add a little bit of context.

I've hauled bags off of anchors a number of times with a Petzl Fifi. Attach the rope to the mallon with a Butterfly knot and leave a long enough tail so that you can tie a knot and attach it directly to the bags. That way, if the Fifi fails, you've lost nothing.

Safetying the Fifi.

. If Tommy had been using a Petzl Fifi the force of the falling rope would have hit the hook in a downward pull and the hook would have stayed put. A similar thing happened to me when I was soloing ZM. I was 30 feet away on a traverse and I watched as the rope spilled out of the rope bag, pop out all of the slippery knot and slam onto the Petzl Fifi. The bag stayed put and nothing happened

hey Mark

Thanks for your slippery hitch video! 

I’m soloing lost in America right now and my rope keeps all pulling itself out of the tag bag or off my ledge with its own weight when I do big traverses. I can’t redirect the rope upward with a draw because obviously the bag will get stuck on the draw. Is there something I can do? 

I’m not worried about my fifi failing, but it’s scares the shit out of me when I’m on bad gear and all the rope weight hits me, and sometimes it causes my lines to tangle.  I was on a bad traverse and the line all came off my ledge (so no fifi)  and I’m on hooks and luckily the weight of the tag bag kept it in place on my ledge but I actually had to aid back a really hard section to fix it and now I also need new pants lol

Hayley Ashburn wrote:

hey Mark

Thanks for your slippery hitch video! 

I’m soloing lost in America right now and my rope keeps all pulling itself out of the tag bag or off my ledge with its own weight when I do big traverses. I can’t redirect the rope upward with a draw because obviously the bag will get stuck on the draw. Is there something I can do? 

I’m not worried about my fifi failing, but it’s scares the shit out of me when I’m on bad gear and all the rope weight hits me, and sometimes it causes my lines to tangle.  I was on a bad traverse and the line all came off my ledge (so no fifi)  and I’m on hooks and luckily the weight of the tag bag kept it in place on my ledge but I actually had to aid back a really hard section to fix it and now I also need new pants lol

Here's a thread that talked about exactly what you're dealing with. https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/120860057/rope-management-while-lead-rope-soloing-on-traverses

Unfortunately there wasn't a real answer given to solve it but lots of info. 

My advice would be if you know it's going to be the long traverse where the rope issue will be present, then your best bet would be to use the tag bag only for the gear and water and whatever else and keep the rope with you on multiple loops. Obviously will be heavier for the climbing but at least you won't have to worry about the weight hitting you on a sketchy section of the pitch. 

Rope bags like the old A5 that zip and cinch after the rope is stacked help a lot 

(Durango and Black Diamond make them now)

Not sure I see the benefit to tagging as described by the OP? Am I missing something? 

I tagged my solo lead rack with all my gear, rope bag, haul kit and top of the haul line repeatedly across the Knifeblade Traverse on Iron Hawk, which is dead horizontal a long as way. Yes, the lead rope came flying out of the rope bag every time, and shock loaded the top of my old school fifi! Spooky, but my rack was heavy. The slotted Petzl fifi sure would've been nice, but had not yet been invented. 

On my most recent solo, I didn't tag on lead. I grabbed what I thought I'd need for the pitch, and went for it. The few times I ran out of gear, I found it faster and easier to rap the haul line than to set up the whole bloody solo tag system on lead, as the latter involves restocking the rope, the slippery overhand trick, and much time.

What worked EXTREMELY well for me was double tagging. I brought a separate skinny half rope, and as I rapped back down to clean the pitch, a 2/3 body weight load "went up for free." This made hauling my main load way easy!  The few times the tagged load got hung up, I just untied from the skinny rope, and freed the load on the way up later as I was cleaning. Highly recommended!

Oh yeah ... if you are tying slippery overhand knots, make yourself a dedicated wide gate Mexican locker. Because if you don't, sooner or later you will tie your slippery overhand knot THRU the carabiner instead of AROUND it. Then you'll be hosed. This is not Big Wall Theory, this is Big Wall Fact!

P.S. checking in from the Sierra Mazateca in Oaxaca - we have three new caves to -200m. Going in now to survey virgin 15m diameter borehole passage.

 No Pete ur not missing anything I have an extra rope I’m gonna try your way on this next big traverse THANKS!!

That's great to hear, Hayley. 

Cheers, eh?