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Second Thoughts 

YDS: 5.9+ French: 5c Ewbanks: 17 UIAA: VI ZA: 17 British: E1 5a R

Type:  Trad, 1 pitch, 70'
Original:  YDS: 5.9+ French: 5c Ewbanks: 17 UIAA: VI ZA: 17 British: E1 5a R [details]
FA: Karl Kiser and Matt Monagle, Summer 1981
Page Views: 334
Submitted By: Jorge Achata on Sep 28, 2013

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Lindsay Koby, climbing the initial hand/fist crack

Placement of bolts/fixed anchors is prohibited in Wilderness Study Areas MORE INFO >>>


Follow the right leaning hand and fist crack, an old bail out (old bolt and piton) is about 40 feet off the ground. An RP can help protect a constriction in the crack after that. After the crack, move to the right and come out to a ledge, may be a 15 ft runout to the next bolt/placement. Finish the climb with a couple fun face moves going up towards a two bolt anchor.

This is good climb for a summer morning, not too far from the arroyo trail.


A short hike up the slabs in the canyon that heads east from the Nose takes you to this climb. There is a good topo of this and other routes in the main page of The Citadel. Second Thoughts is an obvious left-facing crack that goes up towards the right. Some hangers to the right of the crack can be seen from the ground.

Two-bolt anchor shared with Romper Room. A 60 meter rope is long enough to rappel. Anchor bolts may need replacement/back up.


Standard rack and a couple big cams.

Photos of Second Thoughts Slideshow Add Photo
Rock Climbing Photo: Jim working at the cruxy section after coming out ...
Jim working at the cruxy section after coming out ...

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By Karl Kiser
Sep 28, 2013
rating: 5.9+ 5c 17 VI 17 E1 5a PG13

FA Karl Kiser & Matt Monagle, Summer 1981.

We climbed the pitch generally as you described (left to right crack, crux section up the little corner then face climbing right to the anchor) but I remember it a little harder (probably because there was no bolt on the traverse right to the anchors for the FA). The old 1/4 inch bolt (and later pin?) was a bail off point, before the crux, the first time we went to the climb (the climb had a bit of bad juju (see below). The second pitch continues up the west face as shown in the SWM topo. The bolted anchor at the end of the second pitch can be a west face rap with two ropes (less walking for the West Ridge descent).

Originally the climb was named Bent Pud (then Bent Thoughts and now Second Thoughts). Mike Bryan fell (ca. Fall 1974) near the old gear, pulled some nuts and hit the ground. Paul Seibert gave mouth to mouth and perhaps saved his life. Mike actually had a good #6 stopper in the crack just below the crux but must have fallen before clipping and the fall outward pulled some of the larger pieces (no cams yet).
By Jorge Achata
From: Lima, Peru
Sep 28, 2013

Wow, that must have been an ugly fall. Thanks for the details Karl! I just updated the info.

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