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YDS: 5.11c French: 6c+ Ewbanks: 24 UIAA: VIII- ZA: 24 British: E4 6a

Type:  Sport, 1 pitch, 50'
Original:  YDS: 5.11c French: 6c+ Ewbanks: 24 UIAA: VIII- ZA: 24 British: E4 6a [details]
FA: Josh Smith, Rick Bradshaw
New Route: Yes
Page Views: 122
Submitted By: Josh Smith on Mar 22, 2009

You & This Route  |  Other Opinions (6)
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The reachy crux of Schadenfreud.


The crux is in the middle and is quite reachy. Probably 12a if you're under 5'8' and easier than 11 if you're over 6'. Sneaky climbing right off the ground.


Just left of the cave at the upstream end of the area.


4 bolts to a 2-bolt anchor

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Comments displayed oldest to newestSkip Ahead to the Most Recent Dated Oct 1, 2010
By Shirtless Mike
From: Denver, CO
Jun 29, 2009

As Josh mentions this climb is really reach dependant. I'm 5'6" and the crux moves and the opening move felt hard.
By Jason Halladay
From: Los Alamos, NM
Jul 12, 2010
rating: 5.11c 6c+ 24 VIII- 24 E4 6a

JeremyA wrote:
This route is HORRIBLY bolted. Needs to be fixed. How about a TR before you put the bolts in? Might put them in the correct places then. My $0.02.

I find it interesting that you've made comments about the crappy bolting on three routes that I've not heard anyone else complain about. Could it be your expectations are too high or perhaps you're not climbing the routes very well?

There's a difference between complaining and constructive criticism. Complaining is useless while constructive criticism is helpful and has a high probability of ensuring corrective action is taken. This comment is more of the former. The climbers that took the time, effort and expense to put in a route for all of us to climb are nice guys who are very interested in safety and climbers enjoying the routes.
If you can be more specific about which bolt(s) you found to be HORRIBLY placed, I'm confident the FA guys will take that into consideration. I know Josh has personally moved bolts on other routes he has put up after hearing feedback from others. He allowed me to add an additional bolt and chain to the anchor on Pegasus after I got unnecessarily concerned about the anchor. He was not offended or bothered by my suggestion as he has the utmost respect for the safety of us climbers at UEF.

Also, I'm pretty sure this line was TRed before being bolted as the majority of routes at UEF have been.
By Jason Halladay
From: Los Alamos, NM
Jul 12, 2010
rating: 5.11c 6c+ 24 VIII- 24 E4 6a

Sorry. Jeremy, I'm not trying to be condescending or cute. But really, specific examples are most helpful. Placing bolts isn't as easy as it may seem. Many considerations must be taken into account and the best rock for the bolt isn't always right inline with the climbing. This is especially true at UEF given the rock quality.
By Josh Smith
Jul 14, 2010

"Hellen Keller with a drill." Hum...not exactly a tone to inspire dialogue. I guess I'll take that comment to be worth about the $0.02 Jeremy gives it.

Thanks, Jason, for your thoughtful and reasonable responses.

For others who venture by this page or the route, I've always felt that sport climbs essentially belong to the climbing community once they're established, and have moved a number of bolts to make a route better suited to a wider group of people if it seemed reasonable. However, not every route could or should be made to suit every person, and each bears the stamp of its original author. Schadenfreude is a bit more exciting than some of the routes at Upper East Fork, but I've done it half a dozen times since it went up, and I still think it's pretty fun and safe within the normal boundaries of sport climbing. I'm solely responsible for bolt placements on that route, though Rick helped clean it and TR it with me prior to bolting.
By Orlando
Jul 15, 2010

I think Jeremy accidentally picked up the orange carafe the other morning and ended up with decaf, but come on, the Helen Keller comment was pretty funny and far less of a cheap shot than "perhaps you're not climbing the routes very well"....
I agree, though; don't take it too seriously, especially since Jeremy is a bit like the Mel Gibson of NM sport climbing (now THAT's funny AND timely). In his defense, the middle 2-3 bolts were all like 2 or 3 feet away, and mostly right, from the reachy holds in the description - you had to make dumb moves to clip the bolts, then reboot to get back on what seemed like the natural line. As Jeremy hinted, it was hard to believe that the route had been worked on TR before it was bolted, and while my climbing ability is at about the same level as his subtlety (my short ass agrees with the 12+ rating, or maybe like 14c...), if you tried to follow anything near the bolt line I think the route would be much harder. Otherwise, I think this is actually a really nice route - I imagine that the weirdness of the bolts might be part of the reason for the low star rating.
And oh yeah, what's with those Pagan hangers and why do they all hang sideways? We (yes, Jeremy and I) had to tighten down a bunch of loose bolts on this route and it's neighbor Cowboy.
By Shirtless Mike
From: Denver, CO
Jul 15, 2010

So what I vaguely remember about this route is that some of the bolts may have been hard to clip, in particular while hanging the draws. I seem to remember the bolts protecting the crux (shown in the photo above) and the bolt above being hard to get to and clip. That said it does look like the bolt placement protects the crux very well. Apparently when I originally did the route, I didn't feel the bolting warrented a comment.

More than the bolting I remember that the route felt really reachy and hard for the grade. For me this felt more like 12a than 11c, but height is always a lame excuse...

I gave it one star because of the dirtyness (in the condition that I climbed it) and shortness of the route. I also believe I broke a few holds which is -*'s for me. Elsewhere in NM, I think this would be a 1 star route.

Part of putting up routes seems to be having thick skin, as there will always be people bitching about it in some way or another.
By Jason Halladay
From: Los Alamos, NM
Jul 15, 2010
rating: 5.11c 6c+ 24 VIII- 24 E4 6a

Now this is good stuff! No one is offended here nor taking things too seriously. In the end, we all want to have fun and constructive criticism and/or suggestions like Orlando's (with specific examples) are ideal. Unlike the original comment made by Jeremy, Orlando gave concrete examples of why he felt the bolts were in the wrong locations. With suggestions like Orlando's (and DTP's), some action is a lot more likely to be taken. That's all I was getting at.

And with my comment to Jeremy of "perhaps you're not climbing the routes very well", I meant no disrespect. Granted it sounds a bit harsh but it's truthful. I've personally climbed routes where I used all the wrong holds for clipping and thought "damn, those bolts are all in the wrong places". Then, on subsequent attempts, I found better clipping stances and holds and it wasn't so bad. That's what I meant with that comment.

Josh, Rick and I have all put up enough routes and replaced enough anchors to have grown that thick skin it takes to be one to continue to do this type of work. We're all used to it---people always find something to complain about. My point here is that giving examples or taking action rather than just complaining is the higher road to take. If a bolt is in a bad location and it clearly states on this site who the FA was, contact that person and suggest a resolution (or post a comment with a suggestion.) If you feel a route needs more cleaning, clean it.

The Helen Keller analogy did make me chuckle a bit. I would have found it even more funny if it has included some examples of why it appeared Helen Keller had the FA.
By Jason Halladay
From: Los Alamos, NM
Jul 15, 2010
rating: 5.11c 6c+ 24 VIII- 24 E4 6a

Orlando wrote:
And oh yeah, what's with those Pagan hangers and why do they all hang sideways? We (yes, Jeremy and I) had to tighten down a bunch of loose bolts on this route and it's neighbor Cowboy.

I've noticed those hangers are really smooth on the back (where they contact the rock) and perhaps a bit convex. Thus, I think they are more prone to spinning. I've been using Petzl hangers with dimples that really help guard against that. Adding to the issue is the super gritty nature of the rock at UEF. The surface under the hanger grits away a bit, slowly.
I've gotten more accustomed to preparing the surface around the hold by hammering the crap out of it and brushing it before tightening down the hanger.

Thanks for contributing to route maintenance by tightening the loose hangers. Everyone benefits from that.
By Orlando
Jul 15, 2010

Now unless I'm mistaken, schadenfreude loosley tranlates to "taking joy at the pain of others", or something along those lines, which could explain deliberately misplaced bolts...just kidding.
But seriously, I like the idea of changing the name to, using Jason's words,
"Hellen Kellar Had the FA"
Just a suggestion...
Cheers all.
By Josh Smith
Jul 19, 2010

The route was TR'd a number of times before I bolted it, and I think the bolt placements are just fine. I would also give the route one star, since I don't think it's nearly of the quality of a lot of the other routes out there, but I believe it's still fun and worth climbing.

It's unfortunate that JeremyA and Orlando feel as they do about the bolts, but that's certainly their prerogative. The value of Mountain Project is that it allows people to share opinions and beta on routes, and that includes the bad with the good, and the bad is often at least as valuable as the good. However, the web site is a community that is built off of volunteer effort and shared information. For a given route, the route developer is the smallest member of that community, but a very important one. Most of us who put up routes invest considerable energy, care, and resources into trying to do it well--I know that I do.

There is a very good reason that Guideline #1 for posting to the site is, don't be a jerk. If you keep your tone and your comments civil, specific, and constructive, then you'll benefit the entire community, including possibly educating the route developer. If you aimlessly sling crap, then everyone loses.
By Rick Bradshaw
From: Los Alamos, NM
Oct 1, 2010
rating: 5.11c 6c+ 24 VIII- 24 E4 6a

The controversy on the bolting of this route and it's neighbor Cowboy Coffee, along with the fact that they were in the morning shade, had me on both several times this summer as warmups for the SW Wall. I hadn't been on this route since Josh and I put it up, and despite the disparaging words on the bolting I found the route to be better than I remembered. I'm 5'8" and was able to work out beta that was all within reach. As with Cowboy Coffee, the bottom is tricky but with beta it is true to grade (similar difficulty to Warepig on Monster Wall). The bolting seemed perfect, course I had a say in the placements so it may be a bit style dependent. I really like both these routes and highly recommend them.

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