Running and climbing
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So, I've tried for years now to balance running and climbing and I have to say that I have never really found the balance. |
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I often run and boulder at the same time. I'll where approach shoes to have some good rubber. I have several routes in the South Platte with good fun crack problems all over the place. I'll run between each problem maintaining a high heart rate while on the rock. |
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Jed Pointer wrote:Settle with 1/2 marathon condition - maybe 10-20 miles per week, depending on the season. Training for anything more cuts too far into my climbing - both in time and conditioning. I've cycled through a lot of different activities, with my time. Just have to decide what makes you happy that particular year and go for it.Would 10-20 miles per week be sufficient half marathon mileage? Last fall, I wanted to do a half, but I thought I needed more miles so I tried to up it to 30, but with climbing three days a week, I couldn't sustain this level. I felt like I was neither climbing well nor running well. So, climbing won out. Bob, that's an incredible amount of activity. How many days per week did you climb? |
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I run an hour every day, but at a pace that is never more than 75% MaxHr but most of my runs are around 70%. As long as I keep this work load, my climbing doesn't seem to be too affected. |
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20 miles a week is plenty for a reasonable (1:10 to 1:20) half-marathon. I've run sub-2:36 marathons on 45 miles a week. Just make sure to get in a half-dozen quality workouts on the track every month, a couple of longer runs, and fill in the rest with tempo stuff. |
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Tico wrote:20 miles a week is plenty for a reasonable (1:10 to 1:20) half-marathon. I've run sub-2:36 marathons on 45 miles a week. Just make sure to get in a half-dozen quality workouts on the track every month, a couple of longer runs, and fill in the rest with tempo stuff. Story goes that Jim Dunn would run 5 or 10 miles in the morning before climbing all day. I really enjoy a nice jog after a hard day cragging, and I find it helps with forearm recovery.This is really heartening. I guess I always came from the school higher mileage is necessary for longer races. I would run 45/week for 5K races. I guess I wasn't training smart. I can't seem to keep my leg flexibility up when I'm doing even a little bit of running. I stretch a bit before and a lot after my runs, but this doesn't seem to help much. Any tips? |
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Yeah I would have to agree, it is always amazing what the body is capable of. My brother with no training, and after a night of drinking ran a 1/2 marathon, and then drove to ouray the next day for Ice Climbing. |
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Trail running is totally key for my climbing levels, but I keep it to 3 or 4 miles at a time and usually on non climbing days. During tiathalon season, I can usually kick it up a notch but prefer the short and easy thing because I don't see a few miles, a few times a week as interfering with the rest of my activities. Once an activity becomes a pain in the ass instead of an asset, I back off. When I was younger I could run and climb all the time seamlessly, now I climb about as hard, but just run less (also because I have to work) and still get mostly the same benefits. I agree with you that being in good running shape has alot of satisfaction going for it. |
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Jay Knower wrote: This is really heartening. I guess I always came from the school higher mileage is necessary for longer races. I would run 45/week for 5K races. I guess I wasn't training smart. I can't seem to keep my leg flexibility up when I'm doing even a little bit of running. I stretch a bit before and a lot after my runs, but this doesn't seem to help much. Any tips?High mileage is a necessity for being competitive at 10K and up; in fact I'd posit the ability to withstand hundreds of 120+ mile weeks is the key to winning marathons. If you want to run at relatively pedestrian paces (6 min/mi or so), you don't need to run all that much, especially if you've been an endurance athlete in the past. Also, check out Beryl Bender Birch's "Power Yoga for Runners" book/dvd. Yoga is a major help for running faster, as it helps with recovery and what should be the only variable in how fast you run (stride length). |
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Running mileage appears to be more and more of an individual thing. Last weekend I was at a track coaching clinic and many of the clinic speakers were Olympic medal winners, Olympic Trials participants, and in general, elite runners. They reaffirmed that in describing how some of them ran low mileage and preferred quality over quantity. An Olympic bronze medalist in the 5K or 10K (?) said his mileage was never higher than 45 miles, which considering the level, is not very high. It's known that there are several elite marathoners who are having great results on 70 miles a week instead of the traditional 100-150 that many elite marathoners typically ran. There's great debate in coaching circles about the appropriate number of miles people should be running and from my experience, it's very individual and the quality is more important than the quantity. |
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Jay Knower wrote: This is really heartening. I guess I always came from the school higher mileage is necessary for longer races. I would run 45/week for 5K races. I guess I wasn't training smart. I can't seem to keep my leg flexibility up when I'm doing even a little bit of running. I stretch a bit before and a lot after my runs, but this doesn't seem to help much. Any tips?As far as flexibility goes, I have long been interested in the debate about runners and flexibility going back to my college days when the trainers would talk about how none of us runners could touch our toes. Arturo Barrios, the great runner from Mexico with world records, etc., said that he never stretched once in his long running career. And, he said if anyone could find five elite runners who can touch their toes, then maybe, he would consider changing his stance on stretching. That being said, I think flexibility is more important for climbing than running and it's still something to be addressed. I guess it's just food for thought. |
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Michael Schneiter wrote:I coach high school cross country and from my experience and from research, there's a lot to be said about quality over quantity.I know this is the constant debate. But can you name 10 Olympic medalists in the last 40 or 50 years at the 10k or 42k who ran less than 100 miles per week? Can you name 10 Division I XC or track programs that are nationally competitive who run low mileage? And even on the high school level here in the state, how many of the best programs have mileage profiles greater than the school they regularly beat? Here, I would have to admit there are a few HS programs doing this, but the physiology of a teenager runner is not really understood all that well yet, and probably never well since each of them are all over the place developmentally. But even at this level, the best programs in the nation, on average, are running more miles. |
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I was a professional runner through the eighties and early nineties with personal bests of 61:48 at the half marathon, 46:30 at 10 miles, and 13:35 at 5000m. Now at 50 I'm a lot slower as a runner and mediocre as a climber (5.10, barely). I also coach runners from the Olympic level to absolute beginners... so I think this is one "climbing" topic I can comment on. |
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Hey Jay-- |
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I've totally heard of that race and its reputation for being a bonafide sufferfest, but unfortunately I have never run the thing. It is the same weekend at the Jay Mountain Marathon @ Jay Peak Resort in Vermont, and I run that every year. I'm moving to the Pacific Northwest this summer with my wife, and am quickly going to be in the market to find some grueling trail races up there (Washington and Oregon). If you know of any, send me the details, please!! |
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Jon Sinclair wrote:I was a professional runner through the eighties and early nineties with personal bests of 61:48 at the half marathon, 46:30 at 10 miles, and 13:35 at 5000m. Now at 50 I'm a lot slower as a runner and mediocre as a climber (5.10, barely). I also coach runners from the Olympic level to absolute beginners... so I think this is one "climbing" topic I can comment on. First, balance is not the way to improve in any one sport. Being VERY good at running, or climbing, requires monastic type focus. I agree with Michael, climbing won't make you a better runner. Running, however, can help your climbing when you're working on conditioning. Doing it as part of a serious quality phase of climbing is not a good idea. As for the discussion on mileage... what we're realy talking about is aerobic conditioning and efficiency. While weekly mileage volume is only one factor, doing a lot of work at an aerobic level is still best obtained by the miles of trials and trials of miles. I know of very few successful distance runners who reached a world class level off of less than 70 miles per week. In fact, I can only think of one. Most everyone I knew was running more than 80 miles per week and the vast majority trained at over 100 per week during at least half the year. I knew of people doing 140 per week as a regular training volume. I could site you many examples. True, it's an individual thing and some people need more volume than others, and there will always be athletes willing to do way more than necessary, but the basic philosophy that's been around since Lydiard in the 60's is still the proven method. I wish I had good advice for you Jay... but it's really about staying healthy and fit. A little running is the most efficient way of doing that. Four or five days a week of 30-40 minutes is a reasonable level. If you want to improve your running, then the degree to which you want to do that will require more and more. You want to run a really good (for you) 1/2 marathon? Then you have to be capable of doing an 18 mile long run and at least 50 miles per week... 70 would be better, if you're capable of safely doing the miles. If it's all about being a better climber, then the running has to be secondary and eliminated when you're really getting ready to send 5.15. Perhaps the best route is to cycle your training in and out of both sports so that they support each other.Jon, I remember seeing a picture of you in Runner's World, except you weren't running; you were climbing. This was long before I was a climber and I have to credit that picture for introducing me to the sport of climbing. It is an honor that you responded to my question. When it comes down to it, my running is a clear supplement to my climbing. I've been pretty focused on climbing lately yet my athletic roots are certainly in running. I guess I just need running in my life to some extent, despite it being secondary to my climbing. Maybe I can step up my running a bit when the weather for climbing isn't as conducive and then focus on climbing during the season. You have echoed what I think I kind of knew anyway: that in order to be good at a sport, you need to be focused on that sport. It is too optimistic to think that I could both train for a half-marathon and climb hard. As I've found in the past, and as you've reinforced, it's not really possible to do both at a high level at the same time. Thanks for confirming this for me. It helps me to prioritize a bit more. |
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Chris Duca wrote:I'm moving to the Pacific Northwest this summer with my wife, and am quickly going to be in the market to find some grueling trail races up there (Washington and Oregon). If you know of any, send me the details, please!!If you don't mind traveling a bit for your races, here are two good ones in BC: The Knee Knacker (full name is the Knee Knackering North Shore Trail Run) in Vancouver is a real classic. 50km (30mi) with 8000 feet of ascent and descent from Horseshoe Bay to Deep Cove in North Vancouver. I haven't done the race, but I have run every section and did the first 3/4 with some friends who were training for the race. I probably should have done it since I did the training with them, but I hadn't signed up. More info here. The Rubble Creek Classic offers one of the most scenic runs anywhere. It's just south of Whistler and covers 26km with a 3000ft ascent and a brutal 4000 foot descent on fast switchbacks. The middle section is a mostly level traverse of a volcanic plain that feels like how I imagine the Atacama desert. Info here. |
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Hi Jay, |
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Terry, |
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I've been wondering about this question for a while now...thanks for the post Jay and excellent advise everyone! |
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I guess you have to decide,Am I a runner who climbs, or a climber who runs? I've never been able to do more than 20 miles a week(trails) before it starts to really affect my climbing ability. About 4 one hour runs a week is great for my cardio/climbing but it sure wont help me set any records on the race course.... Good luck on finding the right balance |