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Retrobolting in Yosemite - By a Yosemite guidebook author
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Nov 11, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Tony Bubb getting out of the overhang pockets and ...
Since it seems to relevant, but is being discussed on another thread (the author's call for photos and advert for his upcoming book), I figured I'd point it out by name on this thread.

As you can see here:
Guidebook author adding mid-pitch anchors to existing free climbs and threatening to engage in a bolt war if they are chopped

The author of the next select guide has been pretty sanctified in adding anchors even in the middle of pitches of existing free climbs.

The ASCA will no longer associate with him, but I think a larger discussion needs to be had about what we expect of people who presume to engage in a "leadership" or "representative" position for the climbing community, which I argue taking on the authorship of a book does. Should an author undertake the re-writing of history?
Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Joined Jan 1, 2001
24,850 points
Nov 13, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Who makes the best rice?
I've been keeping up with this from Alabama.

This is a call to arms....

Why is no one chopping yet?

Yosemite is a zoo of tourists....but it still deserves more respect than this.

Seriously... WHY IS NO ONE CHOPPING!?
UncleBen
From Steele, AL
Joined Jan 12, 2007
1,809 points
Nov 13, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Cold day at Smug's
UncleBen wrote:
I've been keeping up with this from Alabama. This is a call to arms.... Why is no one chopping yet? Yosemite is a zoo of tourists....but it still deserves more respect than this. Seriously... WHY IS NO ONE CHOPPING!?

The bolts on BOR have been chopped.
csproul
From Davis, CA
Joined Dec 3, 2009
355 points
Nov 13, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Who makes the best rice?
Sorry for the diversion.

To Tony's main point, though.... My answer:

Rewriting of history, the "feel", of the route (as Ammon out it elsewhere), should NOT be changed. Anywhere, anytime. The only exception I see is if the FA comes back and adds pro, whatever. Even then, I feel a little awkward.

Climbing, YOSEMITE, has an obvious heritage. Yes, things are changing. Dude may actually be the "worst of the new left", or whatever. Erasing the history of noble pursuits is bad, no matter the medium.
UncleBen
From Steele, AL
Joined Jan 12, 2007
1,809 points
Nov 13, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Hammer Block
UncleBen wrote:
...Erasing...history...is bad, no matter the medium.

fixed. but I hear ya.
Jeremy in Inyokern
From Inyokern
Joined Jul 10, 2012
80 points
Nov 13, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Bucky
UncleBen wrote:
Erasing the history of noble pursuits is bad,.


Sigh. I'm not advocating new bolts or chopping them, but I gotta say, climbing isn't a "noble" pursuit, so perhaps predicating your arguments on this notion is a poor choice. Sorry, it just bugs me when our community tries to romanticize our hobby in this way. Carry on with the pitchforks...
J. Albers
From Colorado
Joined Jul 11, 2008
2,235 points
Nov 13, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Hanging out waiting for Die Antwoord to come on st...
You don't get to decide what is "just a hobby" for anyone but yourself. I absolutely see the nobility in climbing. Sad for you that you can't. Alicia Sokolowski
From Brooklyn, NY
Joined Aug 11, 2010
456 points
Nov 13, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: The Donger
Or maybe sad that you do? What would this world look like if instead of climbing all these people put all this effort into something actually noble? Long Duk Dong
From The Far East
Joined Jul 11, 2008
15 points
Nov 13, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Tony Bubb getting out of the overhang pockets and ...
I Tend to agree with Albers on the point of Nobility, but stop there.

After all:
Noble (adjective)
1. belonging to a hereditary class with high social or political status; aristocratic.
2. having or showing fine personal qualities or high moral principles and ideals.

Kinda opposite of dirtbag.
I think the sport has certain principles that can be lofty, but if there were inherent to the sport, we wouldn't be having conversations about shit at the crags, dogs eating your lunch, or retro-bolting existing freeclimbs.

So I wouldn't call it noble. But I'd call it history. And I think that is the more important part.
Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Joined Jan 1, 2001
24,850 points
Nov 13, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Hanging out waiting for Die Antwoord to come on st...
This is a pretty narrow, Amerocentric way to view climbing. In other countries they are knighted or similarly honored . Climbing is way bigger than dirt bagging. Alicia Sokolowski
From Brooklyn, NY
Joined Aug 11, 2010
456 points
Nov 13, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Half Dome Summit
The original thread by Eric Sloan has been both entertaining and disturbing. But is bolt-chopping the answer? Is that just going to incite him further? I haven't climbed in Yosemite, but are there other avenues that haven't been explored? If retrobolting is illegal in the Valley, then why hasn't Sloan been reprimanded by the "authorities"? Who would the authorities be in this case and what power do they have? Several posts made the claim that the ASCA has already disowned Sloan. Why haven't other Yosemite organizations done the same? Bob Johnson
From Philadelphia, PA
Joined May 25, 2014
61 points
Nov 13, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Cold day at Smug's
Bob Johnson wrote:
The original thread by Eric Sloan has been both entertaining and disturbing. But is bolt-chopping the answer? Is that just going to incite him further? I haven't climbed in Yosemite, but are there other avenues that haven't been explored? If retrobolting is illegal in the Valley, then why hasn't Sloan been reprimanded by the "authorities"? Who would the authorities be in this case and what power do they have? Several posts made the claim that the ASCA has already disowned Sloan. Why haven't other Yosemite organizations done the same?

There's nothing inherently "illegal" about bolting in the Valley unless you use a power drill (something else ES has been accused of BTW). To the best of my knowledge, ES is not affiliated with any other Yosemite "organizations" - and as far as I know, there are none that have any official capacity to regulate route development or bolting. As has been pointed out by others, the last thing climbers want is to get the NPS involved, as that is just likely to end poorly for all climbers and not just the ones we deem offensive.
csproul
From Davis, CA
Joined Dec 3, 2009
355 points
Nov 13, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Half Dome Summit
csproul wrote:
There's nothing inherently "illegal" about bolting in the Valley unless you use a power drill (something else ES has been accused of BTW). To the best of my knowledge, ES is not affiliated with any other Yosemite "organizations" - and as far as I know, there are none that have any official capacity to regulate route development or bolting. As has been pointed out by others, the last thing climbers want is to get the NPS involved, as that is just likely to end poorly for all climbers and not just the ones we deem offensive.


Gotcha! Thanks for the clarification!
Bob Johnson
From Philadelphia, PA
Joined May 25, 2014
61 points
Nov 13, 2015
I offer that the debate about nobility is a tangent, and that the primary issue is the apparently admitted, ongoing violation of retrobolting tradition / ethics in Yosemite. Kent Richards
Joined Jan 10, 2009
81 points
Nov 13, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Bucky
Alicia Sokolowski wrote:
This is a pretty narrow, Amerocentric way to view climbing. In other countries they are knighted or similarly honored . Climbing is way bigger than dirt bagging.


No its not. And kissing some big snowy hill climbing shmoe's ass -- or knighting them or whatever some dumb Queen does with her 13th century sword of monarchy-- is a waste of resources. Climbing only matters to the person doing it and the people they are doing it with. Ain't nothing ethical about. Feeding starving kids in *insert country*? Noble. Volunteering at the dog shelter? Sure, noble. Climbing? Proly not. In fact, sitting home on Saturday and watching reruns of Archer all day is probably more noble because at least then you are not shitting a carbon footprint all the way to the crag and back just so you could schred some gnar and feel righteous about your nobility compared to the rest of the football watching, beer swilling sub-human masses that inhabit the "lowlands".

....said the jagoff who hopes to shlep up to some pointless cliff this weekend and schred.
J. Albers
From Colorado
Joined Jul 11, 2008
2,235 points
Administrator
Nov 13, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: OMG!
I was in the Louvre the other day, and realized that the Original Artist didn't quite finish what she started, so i added the finishing touches. Much better now. If you don't like it, just ignore it. Muscrat
Joined Oct 27, 2011
3,553 points
Nov 13, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: That's me
Muscrat wrote:
I was in the Louvre the other day, and realized that the Original Artist didn't quite finish what she started, so i added the finishing touches. Much better now. If you don't like it, just ignore it.


I'm with Muscrat! I'm going to cast my vote for how history should be written with my wallet.
Wungiz
From Asheville, NC
Joined Mar 23, 2005
240 points
Nov 13, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Tony Bubb getting out of the overhang pockets and ...
Muscrat wrote:
I was in the Louvre the other day, and realized that the Original Artist didn't quite finish what she started, so i added the finishing touches. Much better now. If you don't like it, just ignore it.

That's OK. They were probably high during the first painting of it! (a defense actually used by a person OTHER THAN the person in question)
Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Joined Jan 1, 2001
24,850 points
Nov 14, 2015
Tony B wrote:
That's OK. They were probably high during the first painting of it! (a defense actually used by the person in question)


No, he didn't. Those weren't the words of ES, they were the words of somebody else. It's not constructive to put words in someone's mouth, it only adds to the bashing. If I get motivated enough I will dig back through the other thread and grab the quote from the person who actually said it.
ShireSmitty
From Boulda
Joined Jan 27, 2013
73 points
Nov 14, 2015
Be Esperanza wrote:
I'm with Muscrat! I'm going to cast my vote for how history should be written with my wallet.


Kudos to you. Voting with our Dollar is the most powerful vote we have. It sends a clear and undeniable message. I vote this way quite often and i wish that more people would realize how powerful this concept is, and that more folks who do think about it give enough of a crap to actually do it.

Instead of bitching constantly about how we (society) don't agree with the practices of WalMart, Oil Companies, Pharmaceutical companies, etc. etc. but continuing to give them our money... why don't we put our money where our mouthes are? It's a much more effective practice than the bitching and hypocrisy.


ShireSmitty
From Boulda
Joined Jan 27, 2013
73 points
Administrator
Nov 15, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Me and the offspring walking back to the car after...
Wow, a thread with a pissing contest inside the thread about another pissing contest. It's like pissing contest-ception. Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Joined Jul 30, 2011
1,216 points
Nov 15, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Me eating a cliff bar walking back from Frankenste...
Jake Jones wrote:
Wow, a thread with a pissing contest inside the thread about another pissing contest. It's like pissing contest-ception.


Ending with how not to piss your money away.
Bill Kirby
From Baltimore Maryland
Joined Jul 21, 2012
439 points
Nov 15, 2015
People often argue ethics and the style of the first ascensionist in climbing and the topic is meaningful to everyone, I think. The point is valid. Allowing for reasonable progress is also valid I think. To illustrate this, imagine if people got upset if you use modern trad gear and dynamic nylon ropes in lieu of pitons and hemp because of FA style considerations. My point is that FA ethics are really only a romantic notion and carry only so much real weight. The weight we decide to give them.

When you get guys who carry progress passed everyone's accepted ethical notions, then you may understand what the real issue is: When you are developing an area, let's say especially an area as important as Yosemite, you should carry the appropriate respect and fear as of one who is working under a watchful eye, because you are. There is established legal authority and ultimately, it is all that matters. It doesn't care about the climbing community's ethics, and it can shut you down based on its own ethics if you ignore them.

Access, not ethics, is the most important issue and there are laws governing it. I think a good leader respects that fact rather than provokes it.
Doug S
From W Pa
Joined Apr 14, 2012
45 points
Nov 15, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: a picture of rocks
Jake Jones wrote:
Wow, a thread with a pissing contest inside the thread about another pissing contest. It's like pissing contest-ception.


LOL!
josh holmes
Joined Sep 5, 2008
228 points
Nov 15, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Tony Bubb getting out of the overhang pockets and ...
ShireSmitty wrote:
No, he didn't. Those weren't the words of ES, they were the words of somebody else. It's not constructive to put words in someone's mouth, it only adds to the bashing. If I get motivated enough I will dig back through the other thread and grab the quote from the person who actually said it.

You are correct. I conflated 2 posts. That being the case, I'm deleting the assertion. If it's important to you to leave this, that's fair enough. My mistake, so I'll own it. I'm taking down the original statement though, as I stand corrected on that point and no everyone reads the entire thread.
Thanks for pointing out my mistake. There is plenty to hang the guy on without blaming him for another's words.
Tony B
From Around Boulder, CO
Joined Jan 1, 2001
24,850 points
Nov 15, 2015
Can we get a list of people that have power bolted in Yosemite?

A few that have been busted and a few that haven't.
K Weber
Joined Jun 17, 2011
16 points


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