QuickDraw orientation when extending

I got to thinking about how I should orient a quick draw when extending a nut or cam (or any piece of pro I guess). I usually carry a couple 18cm draws for short extensions of cam, and for nut placements.

Normally (aka sport climbing) the stiff end of a quickdraw is on the rope side to help orient the biner. I was thinking it may be beneficial to have the loose end on the rope side to help prevent rotation/walking of a nut/cam.

Any opinions or expert advice? Does it matter?

Not sure how that would prevent walking. Use the draws as designed. Leave the draws in your single pitch kit and create some alpine draws with lighter biners for multi and trad.

Not sure how this would help. I would think that the more biners can rotate, the less the cam will walk (stiffer draw = applies force to pro rather than rotating). I would not use regular quickdraws for passive pro very often if you want your pieces to stay...

As stated above, use a full-length runner for a nut. Regardless of whether it is single or multi-pitch. You can get away with a quickdraw on a nut on occasion, but your default should be a shoulder-length sling for a nut.

Faulted Geologist wrote:Not sure how that would prevent walking. Use the draws as designed. Leave the draws in your single pitch kit and create some alpine draws with lighter biners for multi and trad.

Thanks, I do have alpine draws set up, as well as runners I'll carry over the shoulder, but find the quick draws convenient at times. If you're curious about my rack, it's posted in the "What's on your rack?" thread.

My thinking is if the stiff end is at the rope, rope movement begins to affect the entire chain pretty quickly. If the loose end is at the rope, the rope can move a bit more before it starts impacting the chain to the piece of pro. Sort of similar to using a sling.

Kyle Tarry wrote: If your sport draws have burrs on the bolt side from taking falls, be very careful about flipping them around.

Thanks, I'm more than aware of this. I don't use draws that have been used on sport routes.

Ted Pinson wrote:Not sure how this would help. I would think that the more biners can rotate, the less the cam will walk (stiffer draw = applies force to pro rather than rotating).

See above. That's the idea - to allow the 'biner to rotate.

Let's not turn this into a thread debating the merits/detraction of using a draw, please.

Brian L. wrote: My thinking is if the stiff end is at the rope, rope movement begins to affect the entire chain pretty quickly. If the loose end is at the rope, the rope can move a bit more before it starts impacting the chain to the piece of pro.

Use a longer runner.

On sport routes I carry quick draws and a couple runners. On trad I carry runners and a couple quick draws. You can leave runners tripled for QD length, but you can't extend a short QD,

mountainhick wrote: Use a longer runner. On sport routes I carry quick draws and a couple runners. On trad I carry runners and a couple quick draws. You can leave runners tripled for QD length, but you can't extend a short QD,

I don't understand your response. You say use a longer runner, but it sounds like you carry a similar load out to what I do.

So when you do use a draw, what would be the best orientation of the draw?

Or do you only use your draws for bolts (anchors/mixed routes?)?

Personally I only use sewn draws on bolts and pitons, and only bring a couple if I'm expecting those. My draws are all fairly short and stiff; I could see using some of the longer skinnier ones for cam extensions, but I don't think I'll ever prefer a sewn draw on a nut.

But to answer your question: In theory it shouldn't matter in standard placements. Tension in the system will re-orient the biner. But I would put the free end on the piece and the fixed end rope-side. If something funny is happening, like the biner is pressed against rock by the tension, I want the degree of freedom (bending or twisting) to be close to the piece, not out at the end of the draw.

Remember every piece deserves a full length carabiner

I believe that one reason to not have the stiff end on a bolt is because it makes it more likely for the draw to rotate the carabiner into an unsafe position (like nose hooked on the bolt). I imagine that the same argument could be made when the draw is clipped to gear.

What mountainhick and kevin neville said. Alpine draws for trad--leave them in shorter mode if the line up is fairly direct, or extend as necessary. Use the quick draws on bolts/pitons.

Brian L. wrote: I don't understand your response. You say use a longer runner, but it sounds like you carry a similar load out to what I do. So when you do use a draw, what would be the best orientation of the draw? Or do you only use your draws for bolts (anchors/mixed routes?)?

I use the QDs on nuts bolts pitons and cams in their intended orientation and only when a short bit of extension is necessary. Otherwise I use a trad single (or sometimes even double) runner.

Is this "a similar load"? This is what I take to the crag when trad climbing (I take less when placing predominantly cams in straight splitters):

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And a final note: No mix and match with my bolt end biners on my sport QDs when trad climbing. Would be sketchy to use roughed up biners on cam slings. Biners are inspected regularly to be sure a rough one doesn't cut up slings/ropes

I and plenty of others clip the racking biner, use a QD or an alpine draw to cams and nuts. Every placement is different. I've clipped a biner to more than nut on Afternoon Delight after seeing a guy who's been climbing for 40 years place gear that way on that route. I've also clipped a double length runner to a piton on Regular Route.

It all depends. Will the cam walk? Will the nut pull if this or that happens, does the route wander? You'll get it all down the more you climb.

Similarly, I've always wondered if a trad extended alpine runner draw could hold a sport fall????!!!! Durp?!

They used to clip ovals, maybe a couple enchained as the draw. Don't worry about it too much. To draw type: Generally, I clip shoulder length draws to nuts, but it isn't mandatory. I also use longer length (18cm, I believe) "sport" draws on gear protected routes. Yes, sometimes for bolts, but just as easily for cams and nuts.

Stiff side generally goes to the rope if you are using that type of draw, I don't see a reason to change that up.

I've placed a lot of nuts with quickdraws, fallen on a lot of nuts with quickdraws and if you have a competent belay and place good pro it's not a problem... Also I only have the longer spirit qd's makes them pretty useful for both trad and sport. Find shorter dogbones not as useful

mountainhick wrote: Is this "a similar load"?

Pretty much, scaled up though. 2 18cm QD. 4 Alpine draws (60cm runner tripled; dyneema), 2 60cm nylon runners, and 1 120cm runner.

I'm sure I'll need more as I go to different area's, but this seems be more than enough for the pitch lengths at the Gorge in my grade.

Truth be told, the only real reason I carry the QDs trad climbing is I lost a few trad runners, and the QDs work often enough for my purposes. If I was that uncomfortable that my QDs didn't do what I needed, I would go buy more trad runners. I probably will soon anyway. They are cheap, and QDs offer no advantage that I see in this context.

I'd rather have the loosie-moving-carabiner on the gear side. That way the movement of the system is less likely to transfer to the gear itself. The wiggling carabiner will move and the gear will not.

Fwiw I'm not really worried about it. If I feel it's really an issue I'll use a longer/floppies sling.

I was really just wondering if there might be some slight benefit to orienting the other way around. Sounds like consensus is no. Thanks for the responses guys.

People have alluded to this, but have not quite come out and said it.

Alpine draw are so much more versatile than QDs for trad climbing.

Besides being able to extend pro both short (alpine draw) or long (extended sling), sewn slings can be used to girth hitch chock stones, trees, roots, shrubs, chicken heads, flakes, etc. They can also be used to quickly connect two marginal nuts (ala sliding X) or clove hitch an upward pull piece to prevent a pro piece from being pulled out. These options are difficult to impossible with a QD.

Even more versatile than sewn slings are sewn Rabbit Runners which can be used as standard shoulder length or double length.

When I sport climb, I bring QDs - when I trad climb I bring 6 alpine draws and 6 Rabbit Runners.

mountainhick wrote: And a final note: No mix and match with my bolt end biners on my sport QDs when trad climbing. Would be sketchy to use roughed up biners on cam slings. Biners are inspected regularly to be sure a rough one doesn't cut up slings/ropes

I switched to using black biners on the gear side of my alpine draws and silver for the rope side because of this. Local slab spot has pretty wandering bolts, even on half ropes I extend shoulder slings almost every time. It's nice to know that those sharp hangers won't gouge up my alpine draw rope side.