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Questions abouy using dyneema as a PAS
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Dec 26, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: profile
I use a dyneema as a PAS and rappel extender, but sometimes I get sketched out after watching the DMM videos about dyneema and knots. I like dyneema because it's small and out of the way when I don't use it. I've thought about switching over to nylon or using 2 dyneema slings instead. Any thoughts on this? Or I'm even considering the Petzl Adjust, which I don't like just because it's a one tool for one job kinda device. Rich zz
From california
Joined Oct 2, 2012
183 points
Dec 26, 2015
You get a smidge extra safety with a nylon PAS. Get one of these:

moosejaw.com/moosejaw/shop/sea...
FrankPS
From Atascadero, CA
Joined Nov 19, 2009
284 points
Dec 26, 2015
I'm in the same boat as you - typically the thin BD dyneema slings for rappel (usually with an overhand in the middle) and as required for a PAS. Doing so has the added benefit of multiple uses for the same item hanging from your harness - extending pieces, creating anchors, friction hitch, slinging features, etc.

However, my PAS is almost always the rope w/ clove, and the sling is usually just a quick and easy backup when I'm not 1000% comfortable with that for whatever reason. You can also just tie an eight on a bight to one of your pieces/bolts to accomplish the same end. Whatever you're comfortable with and is most efficient is the right answer.

I think what you're concerned with is the lack of dynamic properties in the dyneema, right? Just don't be stupid and climb above your anchor with the sling and you're fine. Always keep it weighted and you're fine. In situations that necessitate mobility at the anchor, use the rope with a long leash.

That said, I know a lot of folks that climb with the pre-assembled PAS exclusively. Looks like a good option for rock but less versatile for alpine/trad.

I am far from an expert and mostly commenting to hear thoughts on the subject.
Ryan Maitland
Joined Dec 24, 2014
10 points
Dec 26, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Outrage Wall. Potrero Chico, Mexico.
Why are you knotting it as a rappel extender? Girth hitch to your belay loop and clip in. If you are using a double length runner then basket hitch and tie a big overhand, you will still have full strength even if the knot decreases the strength by 50%. Why are you knotting it when using as a PAS? As has been said a billion other places just don't use dyneema anytime you will be climbing above the anchor or might shock load the anchor for any reason. You are talking about body weight or a little over bodyweight applications here, even at half the rated strength you shouldn't be coming anywhere near these forces. If anything you should be very cautious about using dyneema for a rappel extender due to it's relatively low melting point, be careful not to have moving ropes rubbing against the dyneema as you descend. DrRockso
From Red River Gorge, KY
Joined Sep 3, 2013
195 points
Dec 26, 2015
Doctor -

I suppose I left out an important element - the knot is where I clip the locker and belay device to rappel, while the 'end' of the loop is attached to the anchor with another locker as my PAS (if applicable). Double length sling.

If just using a single length I do exactly as you describe, but find myself usually using double length more often for whatever reason.

Ryan
Ryan Maitland
Joined Dec 24, 2014
10 points
Dec 26, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: profile
he's doing this


I do this sometimes too. All the dyneema rubbing on the harness overtime has me worrying though at times. What if I'm hanging there just on my dyneema PAS, and it's slowly rocking back and forth where I girth/basket hitched it on my harness. After a while it'll fray, heat up, etc. Or maybe we're all just worrying and just anchor in with the rope and PAS as a good backup.
Rich zz
From california
Joined Oct 2, 2012
183 points
Dec 26, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Outrage Wall. Potrero Chico, Mexico.
Thanks for the extra info, I used to use similar setup to yours, I used a double length nylon when doing it that way, it really comes down to whether you are ok with what is potentially only an 11kn sling. Are you you going to keep it weighted the whole time or is their potential for you to take small falls onto it. If there is any potential of falling on it I would not want to be using dyneema. Rule of thumb is to only use dyneema when the rope is involved as the shock absorber, and that dyneema should not be knotted. Of course in my opinion there are exceptions to these rules, for example I've used a double length dyneema for building masterpoints on bolted anchors, with an overhand knot as the master, since the sling is doubled, even with a 50% reduction in strength you still have 22kn at the master. Of course you'll get people saying it doesn't pass the bend test too... DrRockso
From Red River Gorge, KY
Joined Sep 3, 2013
195 points
Dec 26, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Outrage Wall. Potrero Chico, Mexico.
Rich, despite it's low melting point dyneema has excellent abrasion resistance, like any piece of gear toss it out when it looks excessively worn. DrRockso
From Red River Gorge, KY
Joined Sep 3, 2013
195 points
Dec 26, 2015
I suppose it's one of those things in climbing where it comes down to minor nits comparing obscure possibilities.

If we're going there, the rope will always be the best answer when talking fall forces. But if you don't put yourself into a situation where you're falling on it, there's no real issue using dyneema. Even when knotted and only at 50% it's rated strength. You're just not going to experience that type of force if using it properly (not climbing above it).

I almost always use the rope in the system somewhere so I don't worry much about my sling 'only' holding 11Kn, aside of course for the rappel where yer gonna die anyways. But even then the rope is drastically reducing the forces in the system so my point still applies.

On the friction/abrasion front, I'd say the girth hitch really doesn't move at all. The basket might move a tiny bit, but if you're moving enough for it to concede you, you're probably using the wrong tool for the job (use the rope!).

The rappel abrasion concern can obviously be mitigated by just using the belay device direct to the belay loop, but that introduces other nits like a less optimal location for visibility of the setup and ease of braking. You'll have to decide which is more important to you.
Ryan Maitland
Joined Dec 24, 2014
10 points
Dec 27, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: profile
You can create a factor 1 fall assuming you're falling straight down just by going to the anchor and dyneema can definitely break at a fall factor of 1 even without a knot in it (dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/how-.... The more I look at all this stuff the more I want to switch back to nylon. I want to see more tests done by DMM or any other company. Rich zz
From california
Joined Oct 2, 2012
183 points
Dec 27, 2015
Use a tether suitable for the application. Are you alpine climbing? Then you only need a personal tether if you are rappelling something. Just use gear you already have if you are rappelling (i.e. a dynema sling) instead of bringing an extra special rappel tether thingy, and be aware of the limitations of the material.

For times I don't care about bringing extra gear or weight, I use a purcell prusik as a personal tether. animatedknots.com/purcell/

1. If you can find 6.5mm Bluewater accessory cord, your tether material will be dynamic.
2. The prusik knot will slip if you fall on it hard, which gives it an extra degree of safety and dynamic way to reduce peak forces.
3. You can extend your rappel from the frost 8 knot.
4. Cheaper than any of the commercial slings and gizmos out there. Total cost $6 of cord or less?
Steven Kovalenko
From Calgary
Joined May 29, 2014
21 points
Dec 27, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Rrrrr
Used a pas without any concern, and will continue to do so. Buff Johnson
Joined Dec 19, 2005
1,506 points
Dec 27, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Me at the top of First Time Up in Horseshoe Canyon...
The body adds some dynamic type shock absorbing qualities that are absent from dropping a test weight. The DMM tests need to be taken with a grain of salt. They do, though, convincingly demonstrate, as others have pointed out, that you should try to never shock load the system when you are tied directly in with static material only (even nylon). Dustin Stotser
From Springfield, MO
Joined May 24, 2014
372 points
Dec 27, 2015
If you're aware of the limitations of dyneema and you do not climb above your anchor, there's little to be concerned about in the situation you describe.

If you're going to be climbing up and around and moving a bunch at your anchors (parties of 3 come to mind), then it picking up a Sterling Chain Reactor may be worth considering.
John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Joined Feb 1, 2004
2,461 points
Dec 27, 2015
John Wilder wrote:
If you're aware of the limitations of dyneema and you do not climb above your anchor, there's little to be concerned about in the situation you describe. If you're going to be climbing up and around and moving a bunch at your anchors (parties of 3 come to mind), then it picking up a Sterling Chain Reactor may be worth considering.

Was gong to bring up the sterling nylon version of the PAS, but John got it!

For myself, I just use 2 slings for redundancy and call it good.
Pete Spri
Joined Jun 1, 2009
217 points
Dec 27, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Red Rock
I like sterling chain reactor, I would never use one of them or a metolius PAS, or whatever homemade version you have by itself. Should always have 2 of them if you are going to some some type of PAS.

I prefer nylon, it is cheaper and absorbs falls better. The only downside is it is bulkier but this has never been an issue for me and I normally always take way to much crap up the wall (I call it weight training).
ViperScale
Joined Dec 22, 2013
201 points
Dec 27, 2015
first of all to the OP, i would like to thank you from the bottom of my bearbreeding heart for giving me a chance to do the PAS rant before the year is over !!!

now as to the deadly dyneema PASes .... most folks have already covered it, you dont die if you dont subject it to a dynamic load

HOWEVER ... there is no reason to use a PAS (again thank you for the chance to rant)

- if you are travelling light, simply use a dyneema sling and be AWARE of the imitations ... you dont carry up any extra gear

- if you want something permanently attached ... then use a purcell, a dynamic tether, or a beal dynaconnecxion ... those weight roughly the same as a PAS, and while you dont want to fall on em, should take at least one fall

- if you are gonna be cheap and give newbies something .... simply give em a 120 cm nylon sling with 2 overhand knots ... this will do everything a PAS will at a fraction of the cost

a PAS is the bet way to part climbers for their hard earned beer money (other than hipster dead bird crag bags)

theres nothing that a PAS can do that a cheap nylon sling cant ...

but it looks oh so cool when im top roping in da gym

;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
3,068 points
Dec 27, 2015
bearbreeder wrote:
first of all to the OP, i would like to thank you from the bottom of my bearbreeding heart for giving me a chance to do the PAS rant before the year is over !!! now as to the deadly dyneema PASes .... most folks have already covered it, you dont die if you dont subject it to a dynamic load HOWEVER ... there is no reason to use a PAS (again thank you for the chance to rant) - if you are travelling light, simply use a dyneema sling and be AWARE of the imitations ... you dont carry up any extra gear - if you want something permanently attached ... then use a purcell, a dynamic tether, or a beal dynaconnecxion ... those weight roughly the same as a PAS, and while you dont want to fall on em, should take at least one fall - if you are gonna be cheap and give newbies something .... simply give em a 120 cm nylon sling with 2 overhand knots ... this will do everything a PAS will at a fraction of the cost a PAS is the bet way to part climbers for their hard earned beer money (other than hipster dead bird crag bags) theres nothing that a PAS can do that a cheap nylon sling cant ... but it looks oh so cool when im top roping in da gym ;)


I climbed for a long time without a PAS, thinking it was an unnecessary piece of equipment. And you can get by without one. But when I was doing multiple rappels at hanging or semi-hanging stances, I found out how convenient they are for adjustment. Easier than tying knots in a sling.

As a friend of mine said, "They're only useful if you're into comfort."
FrankPS
From Atascadero, CA
Joined Nov 19, 2009
284 points
Dec 27, 2015
FrankPS wrote:
I climbed for a long time without a PAS, thinking it was an unnecessary piece of equipment. And you can get by without one. But when I was doing multiple rappels at hanging or semi-hanging stances, I found out how convenient they are for adjustment. Easier than tying knots in a sling.


i owned a PAS years ago, i used it everyday for about 5 years

and ive never missed it once regardless of raps stations, a sling or a dynamic rope with knots in it is "adjustable" enough for me

the system i use below is actually as "adjustable as a PAS despite only having 3 apparent "clip in points"


Rock Climbing Photo: 8mm rope vs PAS extended
8mm rope vs PAS extended


personally im above anchors alot when TR soloing or other such ... so a dynamic system is a bit of insurance should i have a brain fart

one thing about using a sling as a "PAS" is that you immediately have 2 key pieces should you ever need to do some self rescue ... a friction hitch and a locking biner

;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
3,068 points
Dec 27, 2015
bearbreeder wrote:
i owned a PAS years ago, i used it everyday for about 5 years and ive never missed it once regardless of raps stations, a sling or a dynamic rope with knots in it is "adjustable" enough for me the system i use below is actually as "adjustable as a PAS despite only having 3 apparent "clip in points" personally im above anchors alot when TR soloing or other such ... so a dynamic system is a bit of insurance should i have a brain fart one thing about using a sling as a "PAS" is that you immediately have 2 key pieces should you ever need to do some self rescue ... a friction hitch and a locking biner ;)


Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt that just a home made PAS?
T Roper
From DC,VA,NM,UT,CT,MA
Joined Mar 31, 2006
1,053 points
Dec 27, 2015
T Roper wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt that just a home made PAS?


why T ROPAH ... u sooo smaht

it absolutely is if you think "PAS" means any attached anchor rather than the commercial 30+ dollahs equivalent ... it cost like 5 dollahz, it has dynamic properties, and it doesnt look as "cool"

a sling when girth hitched with 2 knots is just as "PAS" as well

;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
3,068 points
Dec 27, 2015
bearbreeder wrote:
why T ROPAH ... u sooo smaht it absolutely is if you think "PAS" means any attached anchor rather than the commercial 30+ dollahs equivalent ... it cost like 5 dollahz, it has dynamic properties, and it doesnt look as "cool" a sling when girth hitched with 2 knots is just as "PAS" as well ;)


wow, cool man!
T Roper
From DC,VA,NM,UT,CT,MA
Joined Mar 31, 2006
1,053 points
Dec 27, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: en route to wham ridge  Photo by Carl Schnitker
Rock Climbing Photo: the captain is not pleased
the captain is not pleased
eli poss
From Durango, Co
Joined May 9, 2014
427 points
Dec 27, 2015
Rock Climbing Photo: Red Rock
IMO I think everyone should climb with 2 PAS, not metolius PAS but any form they want of a system to clip into an anchor them self. If someone wants o come up with a better name for it go for it.

It is great for rappelling. I have rappelled with a group of 4 onetime and I was first down clipped 2 "PAS" into the anchor (hanging belay at that) but with 3 others coming down there isn't really room for everyone to clip directly into the anchor without it becoming a mess. It was really easy to have the other 2 who came in next to clip into my PAS with preset loops and spread out for the final person to come down.

It doesn't matter how you make yours but they are really useful and nice to have. Sure you don't have to have one. Alot of people I know make their own with a sling that doesn't have extra loops on it (better if you add loops to it imo).

I like them because I never take mine off during a climb so if I run out of slings and need to build an anchor off a tree etc I know I will always have my PAS I can take off wrap the tree than clove into.

Also if someone knows of a way to clove hitch into an anchor when you are basically rapping off the end of a double rope rappel to a hanging belay let me know... but the only way I know to make it work is to PAS (once again not the metolius version, so your answer can't be to use a sling and clip yourself in that way) into the next anchor.
ViperScale
Joined Dec 22, 2013
201 points
Dec 27, 2015
J Marsella wrote:
You can't use the manufactured one because it makes you a gumby noob. Because yer gonna die. Because the fathers of the sport didn't have them. Because having anything on your person that has non-negligible mass and is not the climbing-functional equivalent of a Swiss Army knife / multi tool is just WRONG. So sayeth the MP elders. It is known. Valar morghulis.


Perfect!
FrankPS
From Atascadero, CA
Joined Nov 19, 2009
284 points
Dec 27, 2015
EeT wrote:
Figure it fit the topic.. are there some good reasons NOT to use the Metolius person anchor system? I have used it both slings and the manufactured p.a.s, I was just curious on opinions.


It costs more of your hard earned dollars than cheaper, more versatile, (in the case of a purcell arguably safer) alternatives. Instead, use stuff you already own: a shoulder length runner already on your rack, two opposite + opposed draws when sport climbing, purcell prusik). You can chop your purcell into bail tat if you're desperate, and it's a pretty good glacier prusik, too, without untying it. A PAS is a single purpose fancy gizmo, which is counter to the principles of "fast and light".

It's a uni-tasker. Whatever. Take it to the crag if ya already got one. No one really cares. If you really want to start analyzing your systems and cut down on extra gear in the name of going bigger, you don't need one (on those fast + light days) ;)
Steven Kovalenko
From Calgary
Joined May 29, 2014
21 points


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