Preplaced draws on a sport route

Do they make a climb easier? On a good day I can lead 5.11a, but it would be hell of an easier climb if I had draws preplaced. So, how come all of the hardest sport routes are done with the draws already up? Would the first 5.15c taken more time to send if Ondra did it by placing draws on the lead? Why aren't draws place on the lead on FAs for sport routes?

climbing friend,

because they are all pansies

Good question.

Sometimes I think they are breaking through new climbing barriers and are at such an extreme limit of what is possible that they cannot achieve higher grades with the extra difficulty of dealing with the added weight and placement.

And other times I think they are trying to break the mile running record (3:43) by rounding the mile to 5000 feet.

Fehim Hasecic wrote:Do they make a climb easier? On a good day I can lead 5.11a, but it would be hell of an easier climb if I had draws preplaced. So, how come all of the hardest sport routes are done with the draws already up? Would the first 5.15c taken more time to send if Ondra did it by placing draws on the lead? Why aren't draws place on the lead on FAs for sport routes?

Take a look at those hard sport routes that are being climbed on pre-placed draws. Most of them are steep. Cleaning draws after each attempt on steep routes is a lot of work (and sometimes a little dangerous) and as a result the draws are left up while you attempt the route multiple times. I'm guessing you're not projecting 11a and making multiple attempts on a route, but rather are trying to onsight. Typically it is easier with pre-hung draws, but get on some harder routes and you'll understand.

Have you ever tried a route more than once?

They are weak sauce. Call a pink point a pink point.

Indeed they make a climb easier.... change the times needed for each clip, change where and how far clip stances are...mess with your mojo each minute of the hourglass that passes while clipping ...all of which make a climb easier....

With times a changing..redpoint.. pinkpoint...on sight .. flash..hangdog.. its all more and more going to the wayside ...

Many sport climbers now just say... " I sent that 12a",,, with no explanation of style...

We all get trophies...

Moof wrote:They are weak sauce.

Weak sauce is criticizing the style of 5.15 ascents w/o the ability to even pull thru a 5.11.

Ray Lovestead wrote: Sometimes I think they are breaking through new climbing barriers and are at such an extreme limit of what is possible that they cannot achieve higher grades with the extra difficulty of dealing with the added weight and placement. And other times I think they are trying to break the mile running record (3:43) by rounding the mile to 5000 feet.

No doubt that happens a lot & people have later climbed it in better styles. But making a distinction between red-point & pink-point on a-rap bolted sport line is simply contrived (with an arguably contrived style to begin with), especially if the bolts were placed w/ the intention of pre-placed draws. It's not like a naturally protected route where the location of the protection is dictated by the rock, instead of the developer.

Moof wrote:They are weak sauce. Call a pink point a pink point.

This thread gon' be good! Probably lots of reasonable arguments.

I do a lot of climbs towards my limit 2nd go, same day. My first go is always a try for the OS. If I blow it, I figure out the beta the works best for me. Then try again 20 minutes later for the send.

Are some people actually cleaning draws after every go so that you don't feel like "weak sauce" climber for pink pointing?

reboot wrote: Weak sauce is criticizing the style of 5.15 ascents w/o the ability to even pull thru a 5.11. No doubt that happens a lot & people have later climbed it in better styles. But making a distinction between red-point & pink-point on a-rap bolted sport line is simply contrived (with an arguably contrived style to begin with), especially if the bolts were placed w/ the intention of pre-placed draws. It's not like a naturally protected route where the location of the protection is dictated by the rock, instead of the developer.

Hit a nerve did I? How many 5.15's have you even yellow pointed?

Locals only brah!

Moof wrote: Hit a nerve did I? How many 5.15's have you even yellow pointed? Locals only brah!

Sounds like I did. Have I ever criticized the style of of 5.15 ascents? On the other hand, have you ever pink/brown/TR pointed a 5.11?

The only thing more irritating than a 5.13 climber spouting off about ethics is a 5.9 climber spouting off about ethics.

It's a sport climb, there are no ethics.

Clipping the bolts isn't truly part of the climb. The bolts are just there to keep you from dying. Free soloing would be the purest form of climbing. Although not near as fun as lead climbing, you could argue that toproping is actually a more legitimate style than lead. On lead you are clipping bolts that are not really part of the climb. As previously mentioned, cleaning draws on steep projects is simply a waste of time and energy.

"Pinkpoint" was originally a term for traditional climbing, to distinguish between gear placed on lead, ground-up, usually onsight, and pre-placed gear that was clipped, often after a leader had fallen and lowered to the ground as part of the ground-up mentality.

It's often irrelevant in modern gear-protected climbing, because most folks who consider themselves "trad" climbers while placing gear on lead nonetheless still project their climbs by hangdogging, sussing out gear placements, etc.

In sport climbing it's even more irrelevant, because even if a climber places his quickdraws on lead, he's still clipping pre-placed bolts. To obsess about "pink-pointing" in sport climbing is the same as someone calling himself a "trad climber" by pre-placing cams and nuts, but still clipping slings to them on lead for the extra challenge.

For all these silly, outdated reasons, the only people who even squabble about the perceived boldness and radness of pinkpointing or not are clueless idiots on the internet.

Pnelson wrote:"Pinkpoint" was originally a term for traditional climbing, to distinguish between gear placed on lead, ground-up, usually onsight, and pre-placed gear that was clipped, often after a leader had fallen and lowered to the ground as part of the ground-up mentality. It's often irrelevant in modern gear-protected climbing, because most folks who consider themselves "trad" climbers while placing gear on lead nonetheless still project their climbs by hangdogging, sussing out gear placements, etc. In sport climbing it's even more irrelevant, because even if a climber places his quickdraws on lead, he's still clipping pre-placed bolts. To obsess about "pink-pointing" in sport climbing is the same as someone calling himself a "trad climber" by pre-placing cams and nuts, but still clipping slings to them on lead for the extra challenge. For all these silly, outdated reasons, the only people who even squabble about the perceived boldness and radness of pinkpointing or not are clueless idiots on the internet.

Yep, end of thread right here folks.

Ray Lovestead wrote:Good question.

No, it isn't.

Tim Lutz wrote: exactly. But you still can't hang and call it a send. yet.

Huh?

If you are going to abreviate and abuse language, at least keep some sort of sense to it. If you manage to ascend a route. Then you have ascended it, whether you hung on gear, fell, pre-placed gear or aided all the way up. If you finish a climb then it is a "send".

Hence the difference between a first ascent (FA) and a first free ascent (FFA).

Tim Lutz wrote: exactly. But you still can't hang and call it a send. yet.

Sigh, do we have to go over the difference between style and ethics now?

patto wrote:Hence the difference between a first ascent (FA) and a first free ascent (FFA).

The difference between FA and FFA is typically between a route being done in aid climbing style (not hang-dogging, but pulling on gear, intentionally to get to the top) and the FFA is an intentional free ascent (climbing the route without reliance on gear). That is how it is in crags around by me anyway. If someone hung on a route, but was climbing it in free style, they either wouldn't get the FA, or would get it depending on the crags/climbers ethic more than anything else... The FFA wouldn't be on the table since the route was never aid climbed and was known to be free climbable from the beginning.

If it is a first ascent of a route it is a first ascent. Surely you can't start reinterpreting clear language.