Plant based lifestyle. Anyone?

Anyone here on a plant based lifestyle? I'm paleo now but I'm thinking of going plant based. And when I say "going" I do not imply temporary. I do not believe in temporary lifestyles. How has plant based affected your climbing? More energy? Less energy?

Thanks!!!

Our digestive tract much more closely resembles that of a carnivore, such as a wolf, than that of a herbivore. Just eat a balanced diet of real food (without chemical additives).

I've had a few friends who manage to climb fairly hard in a vegan diet. Who knows how they performed under an omnivorous dietary regimen?

That being said, do you honestly expect valid feedback here? Dietary choice is one of those things that people will defend to the death, almost religiously - paleo, gluten free, vegan etc dieters, will swear their diet has improved their performance and health, even when the evidence is clearly showing otherwise. Likewise, most of us who do not follow a fad diet, dietary ideology, or other forms of alternative diet will be overly skeptical of those who do, regardless of outcome.

I've been on a plant based diet for the past year and I haven't noticed any decrease in performance.

"That being said, do you honestly expect valid feedback here? Dietary choice is one of those things that people will defend to the death, almost religiously - paleo, gluten free, vegan etc dieters, will swear their diet has improved their performance and health, even when the evidence is clearly showing otherwise. Likewise, most of us who do not follow a fad diet or dietary ideology will denigrate those who do, regardless of outcome."

Yes I do from people on a plant based diet. It's funny you ask for feedback from people who live this lifestyle (not sure where people are getting the idea of wearing plant based pants from) but I guess you get people who feel they need to give their opinion no matter what. I suppose that's human nature. And why here? Simple. Facebook sucks, and why not here on this sight? People who share my love of climbing there must be a few people who can give me some feedback. Mostly in the endurance and stamina field of climbing.

There's lots of variations of "plant-based" eating. Some require significant extra food-preparation time (or significant extra money) to carry out successfully without deficiencies. Some have "social" consequences (e.g. not wanting to meet friends or business associates at restaurants -- or intestinal gas).

Provided you make it through a transition and experimentation phase to adjust your taste preferences (and perhaps your gut enzymes and bacteria) to your new diet, it's pretty easy to get enough protein and carbohydrate to support high performance for any kind of climbing.

If you're into the "high fat" diet strategy, that might be tougher to do on a vegan "pure" plant diet. Much easier if you allow some (animal) dairy.

Vitamins + minerals -- certain ones could be tricky to avoid deficiency. My solution is just to take a "vegan" multi-vitamin+mineral pill every other day. Those who think that processed vitamins are ineffective or "wrong" have to find more complicated (attention-consuming) strategies.

Ken

Mark lewin wrote:I do not believe in temporary lifestyles.

Well the human world is changing faster and faster and faster.
So if your "lifestyle" doesn't change, you're just going to be left behind, and then petrified.

Mark lewin wrote:Anyone here on a plant based lifestyle? I'm paleo now but I'm thinking of going plant based. And when I say "going" I do not imply temporary. I do not believe in temporary lifestyles. How has plant based affected your climbing? More energy? Less energy? Thanks!!!

Lol. Good to know all the changes you make become completely permanent fixtures of your life, and that you never go back and re-vise or re-visit anything. It must feel good to be so perfect, to be such a man of action! ;)

When I dated a vegetarian I would often eat a primarily vegetarian diet and the big difference was the protein. With the vegetarian diet it was very hard to get the right amount of the right foods to simultaneously meet my protein and general caloric requirements, and it was especially hard to do so while avoiding soy. Nutritionists generally don't recommend any more than about 7g of soy protein per day to avoid the phytoestrogens unbalancing your system. It will feminize men and prevent them from building any muscle and generally screw up the hormone and reproductive systems of women, causing things like infertility.

That being the case, the biggest change came when I dropped the vegetarian diet: I had a solid couple of years of steady muscle growth and as a result my climbing improved from the plateau I was on, my daily stress level dropped significantly from greatly simplifying my daily logistics, and more than anything I just felt emotionally balanced again. That last one was the biggest surprise as I was not even aware of how out of whack I had become. Therefore I was unaware of how much of a role diet plays in everything about ones biological system including ones hormones and therefore emotions and responses to the world. That being said, it was a good learning experience if nothing else, so don't let me discourage you too much.

JNE wrote:Nutritionists generally don't recommend any more than about 7g of soy protein per day to avoid the phytoestrogens unbalancing your system. It will feminize men and prevent them from building any muscle

The evidence for that is kind of sketchy.
I've been eating lots of soy protein every day for years.
. . (I better leave it for others to judge my femininity).

muscle? During the last three years of "lots of soy", I've gone from hiking up and down my apartment-building stairwell two-stairs-at-a-time carrying a 50-pound pack to doing it with a 90-pound pack ... (the next wave of "feminized" performance).

If you're afraid of soy protein, go with Pea protein (or Hemp protein).

For me Soy protein tastes better together with more of my other foods. Pea protein tastes good enough with some of my other foods, so I do Pea with those.

. . (and I had already been eating Soy for years and years before I heard how "bad" it was supposed to be for me).

Ken

What I mean by "temporary lifestyles" are the fads. I'm sorry if you think I'd never change anything in my life but I see friends and family weekly going on these fad diets. I should have been more clear.

In a perfect world, I'd like to go full vegetarian, but I lack the mental discipline for it. That said, vegetarian diets are clearly superior from an ecological standpoint and better in a number of ways from a health standpoint, particularly compared to a typical American diet that is high in red meat. I kind of follow what Pollock advocates; mostly vegetables, with occasional meats, but I always feel like crap if I overindulge on meat. I could probably go vegetarian fairly easily if I had to. Vegan I couldn't do, though...giving up dairy would be super tough.

Eric: that is not correct, from a biological standpoint. We are omnivores. For most of human history, meat was a luxury reserved for special occasions (feasts, sacrifices), and only the nobility had regular access (they also had significantly poorer health). This notion that you can't live healthily without meat or soy protein is rather silly, as people have been doing so for thousands of years.

JNE wrote: Nutritionists generally don't recommend any more than about 7g of soy protein per day to avoid the phytoestrogens unbalancing your system. It will feminize men and prevent them from building any muscle and generally screw up the hormone and reproductive systems of women, causing things like infertility.

Huge amounts of soy protein haven't seemed to affect the fertility of nations where soy has often been much more common in diets than animal protein (e.g. China). I wouldn't worry too much about feminization and infertility.

Again, if you are convinced that there may be merit in going totally vegan, why not just give it a shot and find out for yourself? People are likely to respond differently in terms of performance loss or gain to any dietary change, so again, asking for anecdotal "evidence" in support of or against diet X, Y, or Z is even less likely to get you anywhere meaningful.

kenr wrote: The evidence for that is kind of sketchy.

I disagree, especially given how having a population of phytoestrogen overloaded individuals superficially helps governments deal with many current social problems (population control both in terms of number of people as well as in terms of being able to order people around, and this works because people with loads of estrogen vastly prefer to avoid direct conflict of any kind and focus on getting along with everyone). Thus there is clear motivation on the part of some to obfuscate the truth on this (and thanks to this election season we all know this happens), and as a result one must have their wits about them in looking into the subject. Just look at the Asian countries which promote this kind of diet to get an idea of the large-scale effects, and the motivation for it.

That being the case, there is no getting around the FACT that phytoestrogen is just estrogen to a biological system and thus if it is in the bloodstream, there is nothing to prevent it from acting as an estrogen in the system. Additionally, if there is a lot of the phytoestrogen, there is nothing to prevent it from having a significant effect.

JNE wrote: I disagree, especially given how having a population of phytoestrogen overloaded individuals superficially helps governments deal with many current social problems (population control both in terms of number of people as well as in terms of being able to order people around). Thus there is clear motivation on the part of some to obfuscate the truth on this (and thanks to this election season we all know this happens), and as a result one must have their wits about them in looking into the subject. Just look at the Asian countries which promote this kind of diet to get an idea of the large-scale effects, and the motivation for it. That being the case, there is no getting around the FACT that phytoestrogen is just estrogen to a biological system and thus if it is in the bloodstream, there is nothing to prevent it from acting as an estrogen in the system.

Whoa...somebody's logic train just went off the rails into conspiracy theory land. That's also more than a little racist...and completely untrue. Also, what you provided was rationale (albeit illogical), not evidence...because there is none. Studies have been done, and the results were inconclusive. Still, if you don't want to eat soy, there are plenty of plant-based protein sources that make the whole argument irrelevant to begin with.

Disagree all you want . PhytoEstrogens are prolific throughout the food chain no matter what you eat. 85% percent of soy is consumed on feed lots by the animals we eat. Phytoestrogen is present in plants consumed by wild animals. For all you hunter killers. There is no sound link between consumption of soy and decrease in testosterone levels. Fwiw. Eat a healthy balanced diet. Plant based is great if you can swing it. Not for everyone. Vegan is awesome but don't be fooled. You still need to eat healthy after all Oreo's are Vegan!

Is there a list available of which hormones can survive the digestive system and which need to be injected to work?

For example, thyroid seems extremely effective in pill form but human growth hormone or insulin has to be injected to work.

What is it for sex hormones like estrogen or testosterone? Answering that might put this debate to bed. Or not, depending on the answer.

Some folks...

Seriously, try eating fewer phytoestrogens. You would think I slapped your mothers.

As to the studies, the main claim is that phytoestrogens feminize a population.

Thus, please point me at the study which samples a population before and after the introduction of phytoestrogens to the population, and faithfully reports the results of the mean behavior and hormone levels. Until then, one has to go on their common sense, and common sense says that estrogen in a system has specific behavioral effects.

As to hormones being throughout the food chain: exactly, that is the point. Our natural diet provides us with the hormone balance we need, and our natural diet is as omnivores.

No plant based oreos? Damn! I guess I wonder if I went plant based if I'd feel long term effects in my climbing

Ted Pinson wrote: Whoa...somebody's logic train just went off the rails into conspiracy theory land. That's also more than a little racist...and completely untrue.

So, Indian culture is known for being guido? Duly noted...

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:Is there a list available of which hormones can survive the digestive system and which need to be injected to work? For example, thyroid seems extremely effective in pill form but human growth hormone or insulin has to be injected to work. What is it for sex hormones like estrogen or testosterone? Answering that might put this debate to bed. Or not, depending on the answer.

I have seen studies which demonstrate behavioral and hormonal changes in labratory animals. Barring some argument for why humans would respond differently, I'm going to say that the same effect would be seen in a human population, regardless of whether the studies which show it have actually been conducted. Personally, I am not sure why any IRB would approve an experiment on humans, as IMO the ones done on animals spell it all out to everyone but the willfully ignorant.

JNE wrote: I disagree, especially given how having a population of phytoestrogen overloaded individuals superficially helps governments deal with many current social problems (population control both in terms of number of people as well as in terms of being able to order people around, and this works because people with loads of estrogen vastly prefer to avoid direct conflict of any kind and focus on getting along with everyone).

Watch it, dude. Not only is this tinfoil hat territory, but you're about to piss off every Asian on this site with this bullshit (well, at least one of us so far...).

You clearly have a thin grasp of modern Asian history and a thinner grasp of Asian culture. Please explain the population boom in China and number of major wars, conflicts, and revolutions that have taken place in the region over the past two centuries.

But hey, casual racism is fun when there is a psuedo-scientific bullshit explanation for it. Why don't we bring up a discussion of phrenology and racial IQ while we're at it?

Back to diet. Soy won't shrink your nuts or make you easily subjugated. If a dietary change will make you happier and possibly healthier, go for it.

Mark lewin wrote:Anyone here on a plant based lifestyle? I'm paleo now but I'm thinking of going plant based. And when I say "going" I do not imply temporary. I do not believe in temporary lifestyles. How has plant based affected your climbing? More energy? Less energy? Thanks!!!

Maybe change "lifestyle" to diet? Unless you mean lifestyle. That implies avoiding animal products of any kind, like beeswax or leather, or rennet.

Mostly due to boredom, I've cooked many cuisines for our household over the decades, including a long stretch with vegetarian. What I have found, personally, is a huge meat/fat craving creeps in, sooner or later, and makes it really hard not to just shovel in stuff that is definitely not good for me. My body operates best with some meat.

That said, we also opt for not a lot, and high quality. Which means grazed, from a rancher we have met and trust.

Vegan seems pretty tough to me, and most vegans I know seem to rely on an awful lot of highly processed foods, which I prefer to avoid.

Try it out, eat sensibly, listen to what your body says.

Pollan's book is a great read for anyone interested in our food system.

Best, Helen

BrianWS wrote: Watch it, dude. Not only is this tinfoil hat territory, but you're about to piss off every Asian on this site with this bullshit (well, at least one of us so far...).

Sorry, I was merely pointing out that this has been a population control method throughout Asia for years. Get offended if you want, but it wont make that less true. I am just advocating for what I believe to be rational and fact based diet choices.