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PAS pissing match
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Feb 4, 2016
Let me preface this with stating that I am Newb status...

Its time for me to start cleaning my own single pitchsport routes.

It seems that a lot of people are using these PAS chains of different makes and materials.

My initial thought was that I would just pick one up for $20-30 and be done with it. Then I got thinking that is a lot of money for something I'm only going to use for single pitch cleaning up. Not to mention the bulk.

So then I got to reading on this forum and saw that me posting this question would likely result in a pissing match about using a PAS, the climibng rope, slings, purcell prusik, cord/webbing. I'm still a bit confused.

Remember I'm cleaning a single pitch sport top rope anchor and I want to double Rope Rappel off the chains/rap rings.

1. If you say Use the Rope explain how you mean? I get it for Multi pitch. but for a a rap with both ropes im not grasping it.

2. The Purcell Prusik... you would need two for redundancy?

3. Could i make one out of webbing that would be strong enough and sufficient.

let me know what you think.

If you have pics of your other solutions rather than a PAS i would like that.
ClimbingNewb
From Canyon Country
Joined Jul 27, 2015
147 points
Feb 4, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: I'M THE F***ING KING OF INTERNET CLIMBING BRAJ
Interesting sideways approach to the

"lower or rappel off a sport climb" argument.

I give it a 6.
Burcheydawwwwwwg
Joined Jan 9, 2012
1,274 points
Feb 4, 2016
Supposing there are draws already at the anchor:

Carry 2 additional quickdraws. Clip both to your belay loop. Clip one of the anchor draws to one of the draws on your belay loop. Clip the other anchor draw to your other belay loop. Clean as normal.
Petsfed
From Laramie, WY
Joined Mar 12, 2002
1,246 points
Feb 4, 2016
A runner or properly tied loop of cord (often tied at halfway for adjustment) is a cheap and reliable solution. Used that method for years until I started climbing more multipitch and wanted something adjustable and switched to the PAS.

If you think you'll eventually want a PAS then you might as well get one now but otherwise a runner/loop of cord with a locking biner will serve the same purpose of securely attaching you to the anchors while you do the rope dance.

EDIT: yeah back it up with a draw/draws before you untie. Runner/cord/PAS is there for the quick-connect.
Nick Venechuk
From Golden, CO
Joined Sep 23, 2008
64 points
Feb 4, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: We shall continue with style
between this and the "analyze this anchor" ...I'm thinkin troll BigB
From Red Rock, NV
Joined Feb 18, 2015
311 points
Feb 4, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Belaying 2nd (or was it 3rd? 4th?) on Turk's Head ...
First of all, don't ever trust your life to one connection. If you check the anchor failure thread, somebody had a near fatal accident when one of the anchor bolts blew. When you're on belay, you have an entire set of draws below you as backup; when you're on direct at the anchors, that is the ONLY thing keeping you alive. If $20 is too much for something that important, perhaps you should reexamine your life choices. Some people will use a PAS and a QuickDraw, which is fine, but I prefer 2 PASes. You could also just use a long sling with a locking biner (cheaper), but I like PASes because they're adjustable and are usually the perfect length for cleaning anchors. Having 2 of the same means that they'll be equal length and should be equalized.

The pissing match you'll start is in regards to getting down. Rapping is fine and how most people are taught to clean anchors, but it will not work on the kinds of severely overhanging routes found at a lot of sport areas. You might want to consider learning how to clean by lowering through the anchors.

Anyways,

1) yes, this is just for multipitch anchors.

2) 1 Prussik cord for backing up your rappel. 2 is for ascending a rope, which you shouldn't have to ever do (nor would you know how) in a single pitch sport scenario.

3) Yes.
Ted Pinson
From Chicago, IL
Joined Jul 11, 2014
183 points
Administrator
Feb 4, 2016
The cheapest way to clean the anchor is to just clip into the anchor with two quickdraws and untie. The cheapest and safest way to clean the anchor is to clip into the anchor using a draw, pull a bight of rope through the anchor, tie a figure eight on a bight and clip it to your belay loop w/ a locking biner, then untie and lower off. This is the safest and cheapest option as it does not require the purchase of any gear you dont already have, and you never untie from the rope. The downside is this method wont work if the anchor only has 5/16" chain as you cant usually get two bights of rope though a link that small unless you're using a really thin rope.

Personally, I use several different methods so as to stay fluent in them all, but most commonly I just use a PAS, untie, then rethread the anchor. I mostly use a PAS because I do a lot of route work and having a theater is nice for bolting.
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
1,214 points
Feb 4, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Old Lady H
There are lots of ways to do this. Read up, think about what suits you, borrow some stuff, if you can, and try it out at ground level. I use Purcell's (yes, can be used for ascending), and I've been practicing using the kitchen cabinet handles. DO PRACTICE!!

And, some noobs can use Purcell's to ascend. Neener, neener, Ted. ;-)
Old lady H
From Boise, Idaho
Joined Aug 24, 2015
73 points
Feb 4, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Cold day at Smug's
Ted Pinson wrote:
2) 1 Prussik cord for backing up your rappel. 2 is for ascending a rope, which you shouldn't have to ever do (nor would you know how) in a single pitch sport scenario.


You do realize he was asking about a Purcell Prusik, right? Not at all the same thing as a normal Prusik cord.
csproul
From Davis, CA
Joined Dec 3, 2009
355 points
Feb 4, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: I'M THE F***ING KING OF INTERNET CLIMBING BRAJ
I KNOW ABOUT CLIMBING!1!1!1!1! Burcheydawwwwwwg
Joined Jan 9, 2012
1,274 points
Feb 4, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Belaying 2nd (or was it 3rd? 4th?) on Turk's Head ...
csproul wrote:
You do realize he was asking about a Purcell Prusik, right? Not at all the same thing as a normal Prusik cord.


Oh, good catch. Yeah, in that case - 2.
Ted Pinson
From Chicago, IL
Joined Jul 11, 2014
183 points
Feb 4, 2016
If you are just cleaning single pitch sport, get two 24" slings and two lockers. Girth hitch them through both tie in points, then when cleaning attach one to each bolt and clean as necessary. fromtheestuary
Joined Sep 21, 2014
61 points
Feb 4, 2016
Bryan Manning wrote:
between this and the "analyze this anchor" ...I'm thinkin troll


Not a troll - sorry if my newb questions are suspecious
ClimbingNewb
From Canyon Country
Joined Jul 27, 2015
147 points
Feb 4, 2016
Lightflight wrote:
Not a troll - sorry if my newb questions are suspecious


And that is why I wouldn't seek advice on the Internet. Always someone that will mock you or question your intentions. Do you have an experienced mentor?
FrankPS
From Atascadero, CA
Joined Nov 19, 2009
284 points
Feb 4, 2016
Ted Pinson wrote:
If $20 is too much for something that important, perhaps you should reexamine your life choices.


It's not that I'm not willing to pay it. Just thinking that is the same as 60' of webbing or 40' of cord that could be multipurposed.


Thanks all for the feed back. It's got the wheels turning.
ClimbingNewb
From Canyon Country
Joined Jul 27, 2015
147 points
Feb 4, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Aleks
climbing friend,

do not piss your money on PAS, and if you do, do not run it between your legs as the thong.

If you must, you may simply spend a couple dollars of 1" webbing, and tie some overhand knots in it, virtual same as PAS. For the climbing sport, why not easily use a couple of quickdraws? If you are not rappelling climbs of multiple pitch?
Aleks Zebastian
From Boulder, CO
Joined Jul 3, 2014
162 points
Feb 4, 2016
FrankPS wrote:
And that is why I wouldn't seek advice on the Internet. Always someone that will mock you or question your intentions. Do you have an experienced mentor?



I don't mind much if people mock me or question my intentions. I also don't put a whole lot of stock in internet as being Fact. I do like to collaborate though to get me thinking and confirm thoughts that I have.

I do have experienced mentors I can call on. they seem to use a PAS chain.
ClimbingNewb
From Canyon Country
Joined Jul 27, 2015
147 points
Feb 4, 2016
If the anchor was built like the one I mocked up in the picture, couldnt I just clip into the anchor then proceed with cleaning procedure?
Rock Climbing Photo: Anchor
Anchor
ClimbingNewb
From Canyon Country
Joined Jul 27, 2015
147 points
Feb 4, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Red Rock
You don't have to have a PAS but I like mine alot (well sterling version of it). I use it to climb in on single and multi pitch. I have used it to build anchors when I ran out of slings on the way up pitches. I use it to hang my hammock when I camp etc.

If you want make your own version but I is nice to have something you can unclip from your harness and clip to a piece of gear or anchor when you are pumped.
ViperScale
Joined Dec 22, 2013
201 points
Feb 4, 2016
Take a 120 cm nylon sling, tie 2 overhand knots ... Girth hitch it to your harness

Just as "safe" as a PAS, perhaps more so at a fraction of the cost

Thats all there is to it

;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
3,068 points
Feb 4, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Red Rock
bearbreeder wrote:
Take a 120 cm nylon sling, tie 2 overhand knots ... Girth hitch it to your harness Just as "safe" as a PAS, perhaps more so at a fraction of the cost Thats all there is to it ;)


Technically weaker due to the knots (well maybe the same as a PAS version but weaker than sterling) but you should not plan on taking a factor 2 fall on one.
ViperScale
Joined Dec 22, 2013
201 points
Feb 4, 2016
PAS = POS

Greatest marketing campaign ever. Talk about a solution in search of a problem...

It's a complete 1 trick pony. You carry so much other gear that could serve that purpose - why waste your money? Unless you are one of those people that believes in american consumerism - they're selling it so I must buy it so I can keep up with all the other idiots.
Stagg54
Joined Dec 12, 2006
7 points
Feb 4, 2016
ViperScale wrote:
Technically weaker due to the knots (well maybe the same as a PAS version but weaker than sterling) but you should not plan on taking a factor 2 fall on one.


the knots absorb some impact force ... and nylon stretches a bit unlike the metolius PAS

"strength" isnt everything, BD pull tested used ropes to failure at ~6-12 KN ... yet ropes are the "strongest" part of yr system

if one wants to argue about falling on a tether then use a dynamic rope such as a beal dynaconnect or a homemade one ... end of story

theres what happens on da intrawebs ... and then theres brainfarts in the real world

;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
3,068 points
Feb 4, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Red Rock
bearbreeder wrote:
the knots absorb some impact force ... and nylon stretches a bit unlike the metolius PAS "strength" isnt everything, BD pull tested used ropes to failure at ~6-12 KN ... yet ropes are the "strongest" part of yr system if one wants to argue about falling on a tether then use a dynamic rope such as a beal dynaconnect or a homemade one ... end of story theres what happens on da intrawebs ... and then theres brainfarts in the real world ;)


I never said I would use a PAS. I like sterling version because it is made of webbing and can hold a factor 2 fall. Still a single sling will hold more fall before breaking without a knot, the knot will weaken it not strengthen.

And like I said if you are taking that big a fall on one of these things you are probably using it for something it shouldn't be used for! It doesn't matter if you make your own or buy one (i would recommend not getting PAS due to being weak but if you want a small profile one go for it).
ViperScale
Joined Dec 22, 2013
201 points
Feb 4, 2016
ViperScale wrote:
I never said I would use a PAS. I like sterling version because it is made of webbing and can hold a factor 2 fall. Still a single sling will hold more fall before breaking without a knot, the knot will weaken it not strengthen. And like I said if you are taking that big a fall on one of these things you are probably using it for something it shouldn't be used for! It doesn't matter if you make your own or buy one (i would recommend not getting PAS due to being weak but if you want a small profile one go for it).


yr fixated on the "strength" of the sling ignoring other factors ... the problem with soft squishy masses and stretchy harnesses isnt a NYLON sling breaking, even with knots ... its with the felt impact force, theres a reason why work safety tethers have a dynamic component built in

a nylon sling is functionally no worse than a PAS or a chain reactor ... first of all dont fall above the anchors, and should you be stupid enough to do so the nylon will stretch somewhat and the knots reduce the impact force slightly ...

have you taken a > factor 1 fall on yr sterling yet?

from personal experience a higher factor fall in ANY nylon sling or other such is not something pleasant ... you feel like you were in a car accident

to if one is to go and brag about their sterling chain reactor being "safer" ... thats really funny as if you want "safety" just use a dynamic rope tether

;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
3,068 points
Feb 4, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Old Lady H
Lightflight wrote:
If the anchor was built like the one I mocked up in the picture, couldnt I just clip into the anchor then proceed with cleaning procedure?

Somebody have a vid or diagram to answer this? Cleaning to rappelling is not as easy to find as clean, swap over to lower. No matter where you fall in the "do this" "do that" camp, its still something we all need to know, and we have a responsibility to help people get this right. Just my opinion.
Old lady H
From Boise, Idaho
Joined Aug 24, 2015
73 points


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