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Lead Belay Catch

Original Post
disco duck · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2015 · Points: 0

I'm learning to lead climb indoors. I was belaying a climber and he fell from the third clip trying to clip the forth. I ending up 4 feet in the air with his butt about two feet off the ground. He is about 10lb heavier then me. I felt as if I had the right amount of slack in the system. What is the normal distance from the ground on a catch like this?

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
disco duck wrote:I'm learning to lead climb indoors. I was belaying a climber and he fell from the third clip trying to clip the forth. I ending up 4 feet in the air with his butt about two feet off the ground. He is about 10lb heavier then me. I felt as if I had the right amount of slack in the system. What is the normal distance from the ground on a catch like this?
I don't think anyone can give you a definitive "normal distance." It depends on how far off the ground the third bolt was, plus how far the fourth bolt was from the third, how much slack you had out, blah, blah and blah.

But when the climber's butt is two feet off the ground...well, that doesn't sound right. Hard sayin', not knowin'.

How far off the ground was he when he fell?
Bill Czajkowski · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 20

I would guess the climber was trying to clip over his head?

That would cause a lot of slack for a fall that was probably close to the ground, lead him to fall farther prior to the rope catching, and therefore generate more energy. Not surprised it would pull you up some. Pays to be pretty careful when clipping, that's why he should be looking for a more secure clipping stance. Also, it's better to clip at your waist given equally secure stances. Although it's usually scarier, it's generally safer (same fall distance but you end up higher on the wall) and physically easier since you don't have to pull rope above your head.

S. Neoh · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 35

Probably what Bill said ...but to get yanked off the ground makes me question whether the weight differential is really only 10 pounds. Also, were you pulled sideways or towards the base of the climb by quite a bit by the fall? How far away were you standing relative to the first protection piece when the leader fell?

Brian Baker 1 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2015 · Points: 25

For ME, here are my thoughts on priorities on belaying:

0. (Multipitch or what not) Don't belay in a manner that you will risk your entire climbing team from falling off the climb. EX. Belay from a sketchy single point anchor 20+ feet off the ground.
1. Prevent climber from falling to ground/ledge.
2. Prevent climber from falling in a way that could injure them.
3. Prevent injury to belayer from a falling climber (or rocks etc. Though if rock fall is a big risk this goes up in priority)

Much of the time, as a belayer, you can't fully control all these priorities. Especially lower on a climb. Sometimes the first couple bolts or placements are high enough that the leader will risk a groundfall.

Every situation is different. as a belayer, you can adjust the slack available. I see it all the time at my gym, belayers giving too much slack on the first couple clips. Where a fall would mean decking with how much slack they have out. (Also no hand on the break side of the rope with their gri-gri but thats a different issue)

PERSONALLY: I prefer to have a tighter rope lower on a sport climb. I'd rather have to tug a bit for slack and know my belayer is going to stop me from decking. IMHO, there is no reason to have much extra slack out. Especially if you are good at feeding the rope.

Talk with your climbing partner. Recognize the amount of rope out. Try to prevent a scenario where the leader would deck in a fall. If they complain about lack of slack, explain why you were keeping it a little tighter than usual. Some situations will call for more slack where any tug would be detrimental to the leader. (slabs or overhangs where a tight belay would be bad)

There are no rules to this. Every belay will be different. Don't focus on maintaining a "smile" or whatever amount of slack. Focus on keeping the APPROPRIATE amount of slack to not impede the leader as much as possible, while preventing them from decking/injury.

This is all my opinion...

P.S. I've fallen while clipping the 4th or 5th clip on a lead route at the gym. I ended up hanging next to my belayer 7' off the ground. He said he had a healthy amount of slack out.

Sean Peter · · IL · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 105

There's a lot to learn when first starting out lead belaying for sure. Good on you to examine what happened even when it all turned out fine. You'll keep learning the nuances for years and years. But I often see people giving way too much slack when the climber is low to the ground (or over a ledge) to the point that if they fell at the 2nd or 3rd bolt they'd deck for sure.

What Bill said is probably the case and your partner should be encouraged not to clip high. Say the first bolt was 8ft off the ground, and the bolts are 4ft spaced from there. (not unheard of for tightly spaced gym bolts). Then if he was clipped at the 3rd bolt (16ft), waist at the 3rd bolt and high clipping to the 4th bolt he'd have about 8ft of slack out, plus the extra slack you have down below (Your distance to wall if you're not directly beneath 1st bolt counts some too). If you have only 2ft of extra slack out, get yanked up 4ft (or jump up) - his knot is 2 ft off the deck. There's no reason to have that extra 2 ft of slack out down below when he's got 8ft himself! And certainly not when that close to the ground. If you are paying close attention you can easily keep from shorting him while keeping less slack in the system. Higher up, on or over roofs, etc... things change. There's no "constant ideal" amount of slack to have in the system. There are many variables and they change as the climb proceeds.

AND - side note- not a bad idea to actually ask someone how much they weigh. You'd be surprised sometimes how big the difference is in reality. Someone may look 10lbs over (or under) you but be 40. But with little rope yet in the system (so little stretch) and a bunch of slack - an even weight climber could certainly pull you 4ft off the ground with a minimal jump.

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,374
Bill Czajkowski wrote:I would guess the climber was trying to clip over his head? That would cause a lot of slack for a fall that was probably close to the ground, lead him to fall farther prior to the rope catching, and therefore generate more energy. Not surprised it would pull you up some. Pays to be pretty careful when clipping, that's why he should be looking for a more secure clipping stance. Also, it's better to clip at your waist given equally secure stances. Although it's usually scarier, it's generally safer (same fall distance but you end up higher on the wall) and physically easier since you don't have to pull rope above your head.
Plus, I've noticed that when some leaders are clipping high, they also tend to pull up a big double armload of slack (doing that bite the rope thing), clip, than drop all that extra rope, rather than pull up just enough to clip, which is what happens clipping at your waist. Which makes it even worse if they do what they were worried about and blow the clip!

IMO, belaying leaders can be almost as active as climbing, sometimes, especially outside on something challenging for the climber. I really enjoy giving a belay that is "invisible" to the climber, yet keeps them as safe as possible. Have fun!
r m · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 0
Bill Czajkowski wrote:...lead him to fall farther prior to the rope catching, and therefore generate more energy..same fall distance but you end up higher on the wall...
Contradiction? Same energy conversation from gravitational potential to kinetic in either case.
Bill Czajkowski · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 20
r m wrote: Contradiction? Same energy conversation from gravitational potential to kinetic in either case.
Yep, you're right, good catch.
teece303 · · Highlands Ranch, CO · Joined Dec 2012 · Points: 596

I'm not at all surprised he almost decked.

Do that math. A foot or two of slack out. 1 to 6 feet of rope pulled up to clip. 2-4 feet above a bolt. 10 to 20 foot fall, plus rope stretch. Plus what you got pulled up.

You actually had a pretty tight belay, apparently. 4th clip is what, around 20-24 feet in a gym? Yup, he should have just about decked.

(I blew a clip in a gym, took a 25 foot fall, I was 40 lbs heavier than my belayer. My feet could touch the mat, she was above me 7' in the air. I learned my lesson.)

disco duck · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2015 · Points: 0

So Thanks everyone for the replies. All very helpful information. I was standing close to the wall just a bit to the side. I puts some number in an excel spreadsheet to do some math.

1st Clip 10ft
Climber clipped at the 3rd
his knot was 3ft above the clip
That 23 feed to the ground

Minimum rope to clip the 4th is 4ft
let say I had 1ft of extra slack
belay at 2.5ft off the ground
That is 25.5ft of rope in the system

Let say the rope stretches 30%
That is 7.65ft

belay ended up at 5ft off the ground
so that is an extra 2.5ft of travel
total fall with slack, stretch, and belay off the ground
comes to 21.2 ft

That puts the climber knot at 1.85 feet off the ground
Fall factor of .43

wow that is a bit of an eye opener.. I felt as if the belay was good, but questioned myself. I wish I had a video to examine. After running some other number thru the spreadsheet it much better not to clip high. It seem the chances of decking are high if you miss and fall before the 4th clip.

The lesson seems to be.
As a climbing don't clip high

As a belayer keep extra slack out until after the 4th clip

Sorry for rambling.

S. Neoh · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 35

Good analysis! Sounds like you figured the whole thing out. No rambling. :)
Unless the rope was new before the fall, the dynamic elongation was likely less than 30% (unless the climber is >> 80 kg in weight). This is "compensated" by likely slightly more slack in the system than you estimated. It always shocks me how much slack there is in the system even when only static elongation is in play. The good news for the rope is FF of < 0.5 is pretty low.
All things being equal, it is better to clip at shoulder or chest level than higher but sometimes lower is not the right thing to do. For example, I led a roofy route today. At the lap, I had to stand tall and pull up a lot of slack to clip before committing to the cruxy roof move. In this situation, I had to weigh the consequence of possibly blowing the clip (long vertical fall but still off the ground) against not clipping first, committing to the roof move, possibly failing on it, falling off, and smacking the vertical wall harder (since I have yet to clip the rope into the draw in the roof section).

Parker Wrozek · · Denver, CO · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 86

My only thought is did you give an active enough belay? If you are ready for a fall and attentive you probably could have pulled slack out of the system resulting in a fall that was not as close to the deck (either through your belay device, squating down, moving backwards). It all does happen quickly but just something to consider that you need to do more than just hold the brake down during a fall. It will be a hard catch but the situation doesn't really warrent a soft catch it would seem.

Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
disco duck wrote:...It seem the chances of decking are high if you miss and fall before the 4th clip.
So there is the conundrum (does not apply to the gym). Do you put three bolts in the first fifteen feet or do you but the first bolt ten to twenty feet up? Either way, depending on several factors, you risk a ground fall unless you use a stick clip.
Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349
Jeremy in Inyokern wrote: So there is the conundrum (does not apply to the gym). Do you put three bolts in the first fifteen feet or do you but the first bolt ten to twenty feet up? Either way, depending on several factors, you risk a ground fall unless you use a stick clip.
Jeremy.... I think they are talking Gym style Bolting or Holcomb style bolting or A-hills style..... not Southern Sierra style Bolting.

And do you lug around a stick clip????

Disco.... you did just fine, keep the climber off of the very hard earth. The prime directive.
Joy likes trad · · Southern California · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 71
Guy Keesee wrote: Jeremy...And do you lug around a stick clip????...
Not yet!
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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