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Kids with Guns  

YDS: 5.7 French: 5a Ewbanks: 15 UIAA: V+ ZA: 13 British: MVS 4b PG13

Type:  Trad, 3 pitches, 350'
Original:  YDS: 5.7 French: 5a Ewbanks: 15 UIAA: V+ ZA: 13 British: MVS 4b PG13 [details]
FA: Jonathan Garlough, Jim Dickson, and Lincoln Tetherly
New Route: Yes
Page Views: 1,577
Submitted By: chinos on Aug 15, 2011

You & This Route  |  Other Opinions (3)
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it's bear country!


Kids with Guns! This is a great moderate climb and good intro to climbing at the captain. The first pitch can be avoided by scrambling up the left side of the slab to the height of the land and the P1 anchor. It's a bit sketchy, just as scary, and your missing out on 170' of the climbing.
The route was done ground up with all protection bolts placed free on the lead by hand.

A military helicopter came into the cliff as well. I think they were training? They hovered over the cliff and dropped lines down, it was pretty damn wild!

Start on the left side of the main slab.

P1: Climb the first pitch of Captain Jameson. Climb straight up the left side of the slab past a big bowl sized hole and clip the first bolt. Run it out to the overlap and place gear. Move left and exit the overlap and continue straight up placing gear. Clip the second bolt and then a two bolt anchor. 170' 5.7 R

P2: Walk left along the tree ledge for 30'. Start at a large rail at head height and bolts above can be seen. Climb straight up the face to a jug and pull over onto a ledge (bolt). Make nice slab moves up the face to a second bolt. Continue up the excellent flakes and edges to a two bolt anchor just above the bush. 90' 5.7 PG-13

P3: Step out left on some flakes and go straight up the face to a small headwall with cracks for gear. Angle a bit left and climb the steep and exposed headwall on big holds. Finish up another 15' of slab into the corner with a two bolt anchor (P3 anchor on Captain Jameson). 95' 5.7 PG

Rap off. 2 ropes will get you back to the tree ledge and the P1 anchor.


Left side of Main Slab


Standard Rack, 4 Bolts, Bolt Anchors

Photos of Kids with Guns Slideshow Add Photo
Rock Climbing Photo: Amy Colburn leading pitch 2
Amy Colburn leading pitch 2
Rock Climbing Photo: Second bolt Pitch one.
Second bolt Pitch one.
Rock Climbing Photo: Heli Coming in close
Heli Coming in close
Rock Climbing Photo: Jon Garlough
Jon Garlough
Rock Climbing Photo: Pitch one
Pitch one
Rock Climbing Photo: Top of pitch two.
Top of pitch two.
Rock Climbing Photo: Top of Pitch Two.
Top of Pitch Two.
Rock Climbing Photo: Jim Dickson Climbing Pitch one
Jim Dickson Climbing Pitch one
Rock Climbing Photo: First Bolt on Kids with Guns.
First Bolt on Kids with Guns.
Rock Climbing Photo: beta

Comments on Kids with Guns Add Comment
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Comments displayed oldest to newestSkip Ahead to the Most Recent Dated Aug 16, 2011
By john strand
From: southern colo
Aug 15, 2011

Nice ! Don't let them chopper dudes start rap bolting though !
By chinos
Aug 15, 2011

we were about to break out the 9 on their asses! hopefully people will respect it as an alpine cliff, and stay true to the ground up ethic that has been established there.
By joshua corbett
From: Wolfeboro NH
Aug 15, 2011

Did anyone come down the lines? they were probaly after jimmy :)
By jimmi jazz
From: Denver co
Aug 15, 2011
rating: 5.7 5a 15 V+ 13 MVS 4b PG13

If they were looking for us they saw us because we all had wild Lycra on.
By M Sprague
From: New England
Aug 15, 2011

Congratulations guys. It's great to see others getting them selves out to explore the untrodden path.

That being said, the ground up ethic is fine if you want to do it, but nobody should tell anybody else they have to. It's a great personal challenge, but 90% of the time, unless the ascentionists go back and fix things, the routes end up being jacked for everybody else. An example is, sorry John, Black Flies Consume Jim Dunn at Greens. That took incredible ability to put up free and on the lead, something to be proud of, but, as a climb for others to do afterwards, it's kind of contrived (at the top), and not so well bolted, with a run out to the first bolt relying on useless natural gear in completely rotten little flakes to keep you from sliding down onto ankle busting ledges, then relatively close bolts. The result is a line of bolts that nobody ever uses, instead of the high quality challenging line it should be. Ground up routes so often end up with badly placed bolts and lines that in hind sight are forced, or require fixing up later, so I rarely do FAs that way.

So it really depends on the route. For the slabs, if you can hang out and put the bolts in where they should go, fine, but for that arete and other steeper climbs, rap bolting is going to result in a 100% better route for all the users afterwards.

It seems a little weird to me, but Aleksey Shuruyev was telling me about some big walls around Lake Baikal in Russia, where they actually do helicopter to the top and rap in to establish climbs.
By john strand
From: southern colo
Aug 15, 2011

Well Mark, you should have been around 'cause we did the start with out the bolt originally ! If you trying 12-ish slab, I think a bit of 10+ runout is OK.
Where would you have gone at the top ? i headed to the belay nook, seemed like the place to be.

NO - rap bolted routes are not always better. Sometime the experience of putting up the route reigns.
Has it not been repeated because of the "bad bolting" job ? I think not.
By john strand
From: southern colo
Aug 15, 2011

I almost forgot, rap bolting in traditional areas is wrong.
By Jay Knower
From: Campton, NH
Aug 15, 2011

Getting Strand to agree that rap bolting is correct is like getting a Republican to agree to raising taxes. :)
By M Sprague
From: New England
Aug 15, 2011

I agree, John, a rap bolted route can be done badly. I was just refering to not knowing what is coming up and only being able to drill in certain stances is more likely to result in not so good bolt placements, even for an experienced new router. Not liking to have to redo things is one reason that I rarely put up routes that way. I am also usually looking for steep routes, where lead bolting is impractical.

As far as Black Flies. I didn't want to slam the route. It is by no means an example of a crappy route, just nearby and I had some observations. (A bunch of lines in North Conway would have been better examples.) If you had stepped into the corner on the left, I think it would have gone easier and maybe even had some gear (can't remember potential gear, but Dima TRed a possible 5.10 up between Black Flies and David and Randy's new 5.10, that finishes up the corner). Black Flies is hard, no doubt, but people have been out there who are capable of climbing it and been interested, but not so into risking their ankles for it. For an almost fully bolted route, it seems a little odd to run up almost 40 feet to the first bolt, even if it is 5.10 there.

Yeah, John, the experience is definitely a big part of doing the FA. I remember putting a route up on lead with Ward and Chris in Canada, and I remember the process much more than the actual climb, but if I lived there, I would go back if it needed fixing up.

What I don't get is the urge by some to compel others in some areas (like some places down south) to only bolt on lead, unless that is a round about way to keep the number of bolts down. If that is the case, a policy saying lets keep the bolts to a minimum would be more honest. Are they afraid somebody will get to a route before them? Otherwise, I don't see how it effects their own climbing.

Sorry guys. I shouldn't have commented. It is a shame for an aesthetics/ethics discussion to overshadow your new route. I wasn't slamming your enjoyment of new routing on the lead, just got a little prickly at the notion that I would have to do it.
By chinos
Aug 15, 2011

Thanks Mark! We have been going out there for a couple years now. My intentions were not to tell people what they can and can't do while putting up routes. if your having fun while doing it that's all that really matters!

i also feel there is a time and place for rap bolting. Maybe some of the steep or overhanging buttresses up high could have some nice sport routes!, but 90% of the cliff can be done ground up. I have to agree with Strand, the thrill of putting the route up reigns far supreme. I can't imagine rap bolting 200-600' routes. Out craging is one thing.

The Captain is a beautiful alpine cliff. It would be a shame to see it get overdeveloped or over bolted which tends to come with rap bolting. I feel you should try to do the climb in the best style possible or leave it for the future generations. I also feel that respecting the ethics of the area and efforts of others go a long way in the climbing community!

Maybe see you out there, or you could show me around Green's sometime!

No worries about the comments. I'm not one for ethic debates either.

Cheers to new routing in the White's!!!
By David Powers
Aug 15, 2011

The bears in NH must be bigger and meaner than the ones here in VT.

Nice job guys! I am all for keeping the tradition alive.

I have lead Black Flies up to the crux. I dont remember the firs bolt being that bad. I do remember i was not excited about the repeated falls on a button head at the crux. i think they are 5/16" or 3/8" but still not a lot of confidence.
By john strand
From: southern colo
Aug 16, 2011

David they are 18 years old ! I would be happy to let some 3/8 or 1/2 go in there.
I remember a bolt in dark rock no more than 20' up the route- is it gone ?????
Maybe we should move this to Green's section ?? Jay

Go to the Captain, climb up and then rap down. Simple.

By M Sprague
From: New England
Aug 16, 2011

Nothing 20' up, John, but there is some rock scarring, so maybe it got smashed out by rock fall. I didn't notice any old broken stud or hole, but I would have to look more carefully to be sure. If one is missing, things would make a lot more sense.
By Lincoln
Aug 16, 2011

GO CHINOS!! great input.

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