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KEEP HIDDEN VALLEY, RYAN, AND JUMBO ROCK FIRST COME CAMPING!!!!!
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4 days ago
Russ Walling wrote:
The Park is just plain too busy. Way too busy. The camping is out of control with the iron ranger system as it is. Lot's of dickbags moving into sites and removing tags and generally acting like a wall to wall bather on the Ganges. I thank Satan I don't ever need to camp in the Park again. I sorta feel for ya'll, but there are just too many of "you" now. Make other arrangements if you are SoCal based, and if coming from a distance, maybe a secured reservation will make it nice for you. Wait for the new campground they are planning over at the 29 Palms Casino. It will be a goldmine.


This happened to me. Backpacked first night, grabbed a site in the morning, went climbing all day, came back to the site to find other groups took it. Backpacking is definitely my preference if I go back to JTree.
Jeff Lee11
From Thousand Oaks, CA
Joined Jul 14, 2016
35 points
4 days ago
Sean that was sort tough to get through... I'm old and my lips move when I read, but I think I get you.

Maybe something like a modified Valley set up... peak season reservations (or only on the weekends during peak) and then first come first served in off peak for the remainder of the year. Would that seem reasonable?
Russ Walling
From www.FishProducts.com
Joined Oct 5, 2004
3,015 points
4 days ago
They have another campground already built that they could open- the one at Lost Horse- so they don't have to pave over any new desert. Oh that's right,I forgot,the Lost Horse CG is for employee friends & family,so that'll never happen. David Carrera
Joined Oct 30, 2005
15 points
3 days ago
Huge demand. So the problem with first-come-first-serve is folks coming in, being surprised by the demand, and becoming desperate.

Still, not sure I have a position. Having to plan one year out is kind of crazy. I do think that is too long.

Only open reservations three months out? And perhaps leave half the sites FCFS? ... more like Tuolumne meadows. Adds some expense to coordinate all which probably raises rates.
Bill Lawry
From New Mexico
Joined Apr 16, 2006
1,391 points
3 days ago
No No No
I have been going to the Park for 20 plus years
This is not good. I am a weekend climber as well.
But when I want to camp I go out mid week to get a spot and I use what I call
vacation days from my job, I don't like the fact that you can't just show up maybe I am just to used to the old system and know how to use it. Plus one of the biggest issues is all the LA hipsters who come out Dickheads!

Also the pay station is past its time they need a camp host to control the A holes that have no respect for others sites also they need to control the cars. I think a camp host that issues parking permits. Per site
Doug18
Joined Aug 7, 2015
0 points
3 days ago
Russ Walling wrote:
Sean that was sort tough to get through... I'm old and my lips move when I read, but I think I get you. Maybe something like a modified Valley set up... peak season reservations (or only on the weekends during peak) and then first come first served in off peak for the remainder of the year. Would that seem reasonable?


must be comical to mouth "wknd" and "unnec" and "bec"

should ask Susan to read it all out loud in full words to you, Russ, while you lounge back with a cup of hot tea. that way old eyes wouldn't have to stare into bright screen glare, lest old vision goes blurry too soon

yeah, just a matter of how many JT campgrounds, or portions of, to switch to reservations, for all days or for only wknds, to more resemble the awful Yosemite situ, where most camping is by reservation only, where residents just outside Yosemite or down in nearby cities have no better shot at its campgrounds than the lottery odds that everyone else has across the country and around the world

the recurring JT complaints have always been specifically about the wknd camping, not the wkdays. no one who also climbs during the wk would want to be subjected to inconveniences from reservations that address what's only a wknd problem

the system does work as is. it favors those who make more effort to get a wknd campsite. those who don't want to have to do much, who just want to drive out to the park Fri after work like countless others, who want to get in their beauty sleep to arrive late Sat morning, who want to insist it's still like back in the 80's when relatively few are out there climbing and camping, they end up unlikely to get one. to be reasonable, that does seem to play out as it should

besides, the park right now does have a huge campground that goes largely unused even on wknds. Black Rock is an inconvenient drive back and forth to the main climbing areas of the park, but really not much worse than the BLM Dry Lakebed or 29 Palms relative to those main areas, esp if taking into acct the option to have all hot meals in town along the way and therefore having to pack less and fuss less at camp. not a bad trade off. but of course, no, that just wouldn't do. easier to just keep on complaining like the park is fast approaching some thermonuclear camping meltdown, preventable say only by creating another HV that miraculously wouldn't also get full by the leisurely time they bother to get out to the park. no amount of park intervention to redistribute who gets to camp would ever satisfy those complainers enough

with the current first-come system, SoCal wknd climbers compete for sites with each other, plus nonclimbing SoCal weekenders and incoming travelers who must also first get out to the park. with online reservations, SoCal wknd climbers would compete with climbers and nonclimbers from SoCal and from EVERYWHERE ELSE, to see who could click the reserve button faster for the highly sought after wknds. SoCal wknd climbers likely wouldn't make out well in the latter, unless you believe reservations would somehow magically favor you and only you as some might overly optimistically think. and wait til SoCal slow clickers amass to bemoan the tragedy of SoCal climbers hardly able to get their share of camping in a SoCal climbing area

putting more effort into to being a step ahead of the masses could improve the chances at campsites more than the allotted lottery odds by reservations. but hey, people can do whatev they want, have it work out, or not and then complain howev much more
Sean
From Oak Park, CA
Joined Dec 18, 2004
1,163 points
3 days ago
Is this REALLY happening? (I'm obviously OUT of the loop)

"Wait for the new campground they are planning over at the 29 Palms Casino. It will be a goldmine."

???



EDITED:

It's a zoo in the park.

Times have changed.

Reservations are probably a good idea.
Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Joined Oct 13, 2002
1,635 points
3 days ago
Doug18 wrote:
But when I want to camp I go out mid week to get a spot and I use what I call vacation days from my job, I don't like the fact that you can't just show up maybe I am just to used to the old system and know how to use it. Plus one of the biggest issues is all the LA hipsters who come out Dickheads!

Ouch. Well let's see, I've been going out there for over 35 yrs (since I was 14) and, while I'm not sure that reservations are a good thing but, at the same time, the current system does not work well at all. Not everyone can or should have to take time off of work just to snag a site. If that's what's required, then it's probably a sign that the system could use improvement. I'd love to get out there with my kids and actually be able to spend the night, rather than just the day. However, with the roadtrippers, dirtbaggers (none of who I'm knocking BTW--I'd love to have that time off), etc., it's not going to happen. Even if I take time off, they can't; they're in school.

I also agree with the comment that (Sean?) made about squatters taking over sites under the expectation that they could find something but then are left to invade somewhere else. I really don't like that kind of behavior (and there have been earlier threads on this same subject). I can see how weekend reservations would be good, but that would also screw people like Doug who get out there midweek and are now forced to leave because someone reserved their spot for the weekend.
Fat Dad
From Los Angeles, CA
Joined Nov 9, 2007
5 points
3 days ago
I've never had an issue getting a campsite on any day of the week. I drive into the park, go straight to Ryan, nothing there? I check hidden valley, still nothing? Jumbo rocks it is. Works every time and I usually get a spot at Ryan. Y'all a bunch of whiners.

Same goes in Yosemite except I always go straight to porcupine flats but let's keep that a secret. Screw this reservation mess.
Lou Cerutti
From Carlsbad, California
Joined Jan 1, 2014
124 points
3 days ago
If that's the truth, Lou, you have been exceptionally lucky. I usually get a site, because I get there early on a Thursday or Friday and am willing to hunt/ask. I have been shut down on both those days, and the few times I've tried to get a site on a Saturday, always been shut down (at least in the last 5 years). Jason Kim
From Encinitas, CA
Joined Apr 30, 2012
60 points
3 days ago
Lou Cerutti wrote:
I've never had an issue getting a campsite on any day of the week.

If this is true (and I'll grudgingly give you the benefit of the doubt), as mentioned, you have been REALLY lucky. I'd recommend you buy some Lotto tickets while you're at it.

You have to understand though, your experience is not representative of others.
Fat Dad
From Los Angeles, CA
Joined Nov 9, 2007
5 points
3 days ago
To be honest, lately if I go I just drive up for the day but I do believe I have been very lucky. Thursday's are the ticket for sure. That gut feeing that you won't find a good spot while driving around looking for one is awful. Lou Cerutti
From Carlsbad, California
Joined Jan 1, 2014
124 points
3 days ago
Sounds like a management issue. If it is easier to manage and police with reservation system then most good mangers are going to use a reservation system. Tradman
From Lake Forest
Joined May 7, 2012
0 points
3 days ago
Fat Dad wrote:
I also agree with the comment that (Sean?) made about squatters taking over sites under the expectation that they could find something but then are left to invade somewhere else. I really don't like that kind of behavior (and there have been earlier threads on this same subject).


no, not anything i had said. i pointed out campgrounds are now full by Thu bec some go out that early to get a site and to legally stay in that site thru Fri and the wknd. but if Fri and Sat nights become reservations only (just the wknd), then that ploy wouldn't work, and the Thu congestion would dissipate since that's really a symptom of the wknd problem

presently, even the proactive don't always get a wknd site. but here's the thing. if you don't get a site, you're supposed to figure out something else for yourselves, not to ruin someone else's outing by imposing into or stealing their site. some transgressors might feel they could get away with that against some campers who might not immediately know how to respond. but on other nights, they might run into others (ahem) who already know exactly how to make them instantly regret that kind of despicable behavior
Sean
From Oak Park, CA
Joined Dec 18, 2004
1,163 points
3 days ago
Russ Walling wrote:
Sean that was sort tough to get through... I'm old and my lips move when I read, but I think I get you. Maybe something like a modified Valley set up... peak season reservations (or only on the weekends during peak) and then first come first served in off peak for the remainder of the year. Would that seem reasonable?


Russ, I think that this would be the optimal scenario. However, I assume that, if the park goes through the trouble of having a reservation system, they will likely implement it throughout the year.

What has happened in yosemite valley is a useful comparison-- most climbers who regularly go to the valley do not rely on the formal campsite system-- they have there own sleeping situation worked out (usually involving sleeping outside the park). I imagine that the crowding situation in J-tree will lead to the same outcome. As Russ mentioned, the #1 problem is the number of visitors, not the campsite reservation system or the number of campsites.
mpech
Joined Sep 8, 2013
6 points
3 days ago
I feel sorry for the non-climbers that want to camp in the park. Locker
From Yucca Valley, CA
Joined Oct 13, 2002
1,635 points
3 days ago
I noticed a "host ste" at Hidden Valley when I walked through a few weeks ag. In that great site where, I understand, Chongo had his sewing center set up BITD. It appeared to be a legitimate set up, with "reserved for Campground Host" signs.

Two vehicles parked, looked like climber without huge resources type of vehicle.

My first thought was "Grrrr - How did I not KNOW about this and try for it?"

I would laugh so well if I found out someone just put those signs up and has had the run of the place all season......(I'm sure that's not the case, and that it would not be "overlooked" by rangers driving through - but the idea of it being possible....hilarious.
Happiegrrrl
From Gunks
Joined Dec 23, 2005
0 points
3 days ago
My experience is that people already "reserve" their campsite by driving out midweek to put some tags on sites they plan to use a few days later.

Secondly they often don't actually pay for them, just put up the tags. Rangers don't check.
Maureen Maguire
Joined Feb 4, 2008
0 points
2 days ago
no, a tag alone isn't enough. rule is the site has to be occupied. rangers do check. i have seen them do it. they would remove that tag. if i were looking for a site, i would remove that too. if the placer of that holder tag were nearby and object, that person could either remove it him/herself, or we could have the ranger come remove that along with handing out a citation carrying a hefty fine. if caught holding a site for someone else, the fine is a hundred sixty some dollars, or maybe more by now (that happened to someone couple yrs ago). their choice Sean
From Oak Park, CA
Joined Dec 18, 2004
1,163 points
2 days ago
Sean wrote:
no, a tag alone isn't enough. rule is the site has to be occupied. rangers do check. i have seen them do it. they would remove that tag. if i were looking for a site, i would remove that too. if the placer of that holder tag were nearby and object, that person could either remove it him/herself, or we could have the ranger come remove that along with handing out a citation carrying a hefty fine. if caught holding a site for someone else, the fine is a hundred sixty some dollars, or maybe more by now (that happened to someone couple yrs ago). their choice


If you manage to snag a site in the morning, you have to stay there all day to be able to use it at night?
Jeff Lee11
From Thousand Oaks, CA
Joined Jul 14, 2016
35 points
2 days ago
i didn't say you have to stay all day at a site to be able to use it at night

people are out climbing or hiking with no one present at their occupied site all the time

know the rules
Sean
From Oak Park, CA
Joined Dec 18, 2004
1,163 points
2 days ago
It used to be(maybe as short time back as five years) that if there was a tag and campchair, or fuel cannister, or water jug set out in prominent sight, the site was taken. True, sometimes saved for a friend, but also sometimes a minimal person who bivy's in the open and preferred to not lost their cooking stove, sleeping bag and other things while they were out for the day.

With the rise in demand, that just couldn't continue. People look at "that" and think it is a "saved site, and not paid for," which may, or may NOT, be true.

If you snag a site in the morning and go out for the day, best to leave a more reliable indicator that you will be back. If your campchair looks like it came out of the dumpster, especially one that can't support weight, a desperate camper is going to "suspect" it is not a "paid for site." Use your head. If you have a bin of food that can withstand the sun and exposure to animals, that is a better "placeholder." Take the few minutes to set up and tie down your tent if you will use one. Make it obvious that you HAVE taken and paid for the site.

I don't really think that many people are trying to "save" sites for friends anymore, although I would say that it does still happen on a small basis.



Happiegrrrl
From Gunks
Joined Dec 23, 2005
0 points
2 days ago
As happy suggested, sometimes leaving stuff isn't enough. I had a tent pitches, chairs out and still have found others in my site when I got back. Fat Dad
From Los Angeles, CA
Joined Nov 9, 2007
5 points
2 days ago
Several years ago, I had an entire set up at the site next to Stem Gem. Tent, picnic table with two burner cook stove, etc. Obviously "lived in."

Came back after going to town in the evening to a car parked in the spot, another tent set up, and more than half the table covered with "their stuff."

I called out "WTF?" and heard a couple, guy and gorl, talking in the tent. The fly unzips and a young woman sticks her head out and says something like "We couldn't find an open site...." Np - Hey, I know we intruded, but there was nothing open and it looked like you might not be a two-car group and we were waiting up to talk to you."


She was very much like "This is the best we could do, and if you hadn't a tent set up, we would be insisting this was "our" site right now. No offer whatsoever to share the cost.

I was angry, and said they were lucky I didn't have a second car in my party, and that I could insist they leave but I wasn't that much of an asshole(because although I definitely CAN be, at that moment, I did have the ability to understand their situation, even if they engaged with me in a different way than I would have done were the situation reversed - although...I would never just set up in someone else's spot, no matter what).

The next morning, they stayed in that tent until I went off for something. I got back and they had packed up and left, and they had stuck a five under my stove.

Thing was - I would have been HAPPY to share the site! Even the set up surprise if they had simply left a NOTE out for me to see when I had gotten there.
Happiegrrrl
From Gunks
Joined Dec 23, 2005
0 points
2 days ago
OH1 If you have two cars in your party - you'd BEST make that clear when you are away from the site. My suggestion? place a campchair or some other large item in space indicating "this is needed for TWO cars" and secure them so they cannot be moved. Happiegrrrl
From Gunks
Joined Dec 23, 2005
0 points


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