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Courthouse Rock
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Groover, The T 
Idiopathic S 
Indie Buttress  T 
Standard Route T 


YDS: 5.9- French: 5c Ewbanks: 17 UIAA: VI ZA: 16 British: HVS 4c PG13

Type:  Sport, 4 pitches, 700'
Original:  YDS: 5.9- French: 5c Ewbanks: 17 UIAA: VI ZA: 16 British: HVS 4c PG13 [details]
FA: unknown
Page Views: 3,919
Submitted By: Aaron Collins on Mar 27, 2011

You & This Route  |  Other Opinions (15)
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AC starting P1

idiopathic- unknown origin  

700' of moderate,dirty but fun and exciting climbing, that leads to a cool summit.The first pitch is the crux and has 17 bolts to chains. The second pitch has 10 bolts and crawls up a cool chimney-esk groove that has a really cool belay. It's a really cool pitch tambien!! Pitch three continues up the groove for 6 or so bolts then traverses out right at a 45 degree angle for thee bolts to a belay owl cove. Forth pitch continues up right on easy terrain to the summit.


The dyke just to the right of Groover. The first bolt is aprox. 20 ft up. Rap the route. Watch for rocks as you pull the ropes!!


4 expendable runners
2 60m ropes mandatory to rap off

Photos of Idiopathic Slideshow Add Photo
Rock Climbing Photo: Prepping For The Climb
Prepping For The Climb
Rock Climbing Photo: Pano from the first belay.
Pano from the first belay.
Rock Climbing Photo: AC looking for the origin
AC looking for the origin
Rock Climbing Photo: The second pitch belay.  It has some pretty good l...
The second pitch belay. It has some pretty good l...
Rock Climbing Photo: Second Pitch.
Second Pitch.
Rock Climbing Photo: austin headed out rt on p3
austin headed out rt on p3
Rock Climbing Photo: RazRez leading the LONG first pitch.  Climbing is ...
RazRez leading the LONG first pitch. Climbing is ...
Rock Climbing Photo: chris working his way up the slot
chris working his way up the slot
Rock Climbing Photo: chris belaying up Austin P2
chris belaying up Austin P2
Rock Climbing Photo: Chris headed up P2
Chris headed up P2
Rock Climbing Photo: Austin nearing the top of P1
Austin nearing the top of P1
Rock Climbing Photo: austin  stylin up P1
austin stylin up P1
Rock Climbing Photo: RazRez leading the LONG first pitch.  Climbing is ...
RazRez leading the LONG first pitch. Climbing is ...
Rock Climbing Photo: P3 Belay
P3 Belay
Rock Climbing Photo: RazRez leading the LONG first pitch.  Climbing is ...
RazRez leading the LONG first pitch. Climbing is ...
Rock Climbing Photo: Chris on P4
Chris on P4
Rock Climbing Photo: GregC found a no-hands perch
GregC found a no-hands perch
Rock Climbing Photo: Lower Summit
Lower Summit
Rock Climbing Photo: First Belay Station
First Belay Station
Rock Climbing Photo: simi rapping off with 2 60m ropes
simi rapping off with 2 60m ropes
Rock Climbing Photo: Crazy hangers at the belay station.  Need to go ba...
Crazy hangers at the belay station. Need to go ba...
Rock Climbing Photo: P4 belay
P4 belay
Rock Climbing Photo: Third belay station right after the "Owl Perc...
Third belay station right after the "Owl Perc...
Rock Climbing Photo: idiopathic

Show All 24 Photos

Only the first 24 are shown above.

Comments on Idiopathic Add Comment
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Comments displayed oldest to newestSkip Ahead to the Most Recent Dated Jan 17, 2017
By bio
From: mesa, az
Mar 28, 2011

The second pitch has 12 bolts, and I think Aaron meant extendable runners because I know I wouldn't want to throw any away! It's a fun climb with a great summit.
By Fletch
From: Scottsdale
Apr 13, 2011

Idiopathic is actually to THE RIGHT of the Groover!!! Do we know whose FA this is?
By manuel rangel
From: Tempe, Arizona
Apr 14, 2011
rating: 5.9 5c 17 VI 17 HVS 5a PG13

Good gravy, not another scarefest! I have to get on it soon...
By jbak
Oct 30, 2011

"owl cove" ??... haha... I like that.
By Aaron Collins
From: Santan Valley, AZ
Oct 31, 2011

I'm writing this from my roll-a-way bed in 4D of Banner Desert Med Center. I've been cooped up for 2 weeks while my wife and son recover from a DVT in the rt leg, and Porter coming 2 months early. Austin and Chris broke me out of the hospital at 0800 in Mesa on Sat. Afyer stopping for gas and breakfast, I was roped up and headed up Idiopathic by 1100 for a much needed break.
These guys styled their way up the Courthouse as we climbed in a party of three. I led each pitch first, then pulled my rope and used it to get in better position for pictures. We were back at our packs by 1545 and driving out by 1600. I got back to the hospital by 1730 to my wife who was happy that I was happy:)
I had a blast guys! Thanks for the belays and I hope you enjoy the pics. Lets get up to the East Verde before the snow:)
By manuel rangel
From: Tempe, Arizona
Nov 3, 2011
rating: 5.9 5c 17 VI 17 HVS 5a PG13

Todd Foor and I climbed it yesterday. I think it was great fun and adventurous. I think it needs a few more ascents to clean the flaky stuff off. A bit in the middle of the third pitch the rock deteriorated on the face and I leaned left to the crack, not much more solid, but it gave me pause since I was a little ways above the bolt. The crack needs some cleaning there, I tossed off a bit.
By Joe Cayer
From: Mesa, Az
Dec 30, 2011
rating: 5.9- 5c 17 VI 16 HVS 4c PG13

Wow!! This climb keeps you wondering what's going to stay and what's going to crumble away! Very exciting climb. You get some great stances with a lot of fragile moves to get to them. I lead with 3 others following, after the 1st pitch, my second decided to head back to the ground due to being terrified! Three of us continued, hoping that we'd find more stable terrain above, we didn't.
Well bolted, but a bit heady regardless. I think it may go up a grade after some more cleaning!
By matt evans
From: salt lake city, UT
Jan 2, 2012
rating: 5.9- 5c 17 VI 16 HVS 4c PG13

This was a pretty fun route. First two pitches are three star dirty, crumbly climbing. Some of the loose holds add to the mental fun factor. If rock was solid it could be rated a 5.8. Last two pitches are only necessary if you want a summit shot, not too exciting. One to two stars.

I may just be a little bitter though since my phone dropped out of my pocket while rapping the final pitch. Screen on my fancy smart phone is broken and I lost my sd card somewhere -must have popped out (and my camera had tons of awesome climbing pictures on it). Looked for it for an hour but never found it. :(
By Catherine Conner
From: Phoenix, AZ
Jan 16, 2012

I thought this was really fun. It does have a crumble factor, but enjoyed it, good route.
By Sayfe
From: Scottsdale, az
Feb 5, 2012

Steve Tillery and I climbed it last weekened. Out rope got stuck in the rap and We could not get it.
We are back at the base of the climb today, and the ropes are gone. If you retrieved them, please let us know. Email me:

Great climb!
By lou
Feb 5, 2012

not recomended.... rock is brittle, any hold can n did n will give.
the route is bolted as if the rock were granite.. but with the generous spacing of the bolts and the crap rock this route is 5.9r

after the fifthish bolt on the third pitch you cant see the next bolt.. anywhere to be found... the route does not logically go up, but traverses hard right... who would guess.. hmmmm needs a plaque with an arrow ( he he)... would be very hard to rap the route and retrieve your gear after the second pitch... I would climb the first two ,, rap,, and call it a day.... hit the groover, a much better climb.
sayfe got your ropes off the route.. ill email ya...
By enkoopa
Feb 20, 2013

The rock is lose but it's still a good route.

You can drive almost to the base especially with 4wd. We stopped way too soon.

The bolts are pretty good. The anchors aren't. A homemade hanger or other inventions. Also agree with the traverse... It needs a bolt to indicate there is more climbing up to the right.

A nice route.. Good mix of climbing. Nice stemming section. If the anchors were better it would be a good route for an intro to multipitch for a solid 5.9 climber.
By RazRez
Feb 27, 2013

GPS coordinates (WGS84 hddd.ddddd°)

Start of Idiopathic:
N33.46194 W113.35839
By beytzim
Nov 30, 2013

Fun route but a couple of gotchas. Like everyone else said, really chossy, so be aware of holds breaking and lots of rock fall.

Pitch 3: the traverse after the eighth bolt to the hidden ninth is a dangerous joke. The 9th bolt is about 10 feet to the right, hidden inside a cove. No way to see it until you get right on top of it. And the traverse is very chossy.

Third rappel: The rappel anchors are set too far into the ledge. This guarantees a stuck rope. Ask me how I know! For hassle free rope retrieval its best to extend the rappel point with your own gear and donate it to Idiopathic!
By Shawn C
From: San Francisco, CA
Dec 6, 2013

Yup, chossy. Camping-latern-sized rock in the middle of P3 ready to topple. BEWARE. Wanted to clean it, but didn't have the stamina. On that note, the large crack/chimney feature to the left of the start of Idiopathic is not Idiopathic and is meant to be done with trad gear or someone who feels like risking broken ankles. P2 has about 15(?) bolts. I found the mysterious hidden bolt on P3, but couldn't figure out where to go next and was spooked, tired and cold. Sorry about leaving that massive rock up there. It's just to the left of the hidden bolt on P3.

Watch out for rapping down after dark. This is wilderness and there are no trails around. It's simple bush whacking, but might be difficult to find your way back to the car after dark. Of course, that is assuming you didn't have a GPS unit.
By Shawn C
From: San Francisco, CA
Dec 9, 2013

+1 on the stuck rope comment from beytzim above. From the 2nd rap anchor we also nearly got our rope stuck due almost entirely to rope drag near the 3rd anchor and because the rope needs to curve around a big ledge above 2nd anchor. In order to free our rope my partner put me on belay (with the tail of some of the rope) and I walked/traversed out to the right about 10-15 feet so that the rope angle was straightened out some. Then I was able to fairly easily pull the rope. Without this adjustment the two of us could put all our weight on the pull rope and it wouldn't even move.
By NC Rock Climber
From: The Oven, AKA Phoenix
Dec 20, 2013

Fun, varied and moderate climbing on a cool desert massif. The exposure and views from this route are amazing. The only issue, and imho it is a big issue, is the rock quality. The rock is chossy, flakey, crumbly and generally just shitty. I don't think that this route will improve with time; the choss factor will remain. On better rock, I would give this route 3 stars. As it is, it gets 1.5. I don't regret doing it, but can't see myself going back.

A few folks commented on route finding on the third pitch. At the 9th bolt (the last one you can see) go right. Not up and right, but right, to find bolt 10. After clipping bolt 10, continue up and right to the belay. Other than that, route finding is really straightforward.
By Nate Young
From: Phoenix
Mar 17, 2014
rating: 5.8+ 5b 16 VI- 15 HVS 4c R

I replaced the chains and hangers on pitches #1 & #2. Now, when you RAP off pitch #2, just go directly off the edge rather than going back through the gully. It will save a massive amount of rope drag and will keep your rope from getting caught.
By beytzim
May 8, 2014

Nate, You than man!! Thanks!!
By Clayton S.
From: Scottsdale, AZ
Feb 17, 2015
rating: 5.9- 5c 17 VI 16 HVS 4c

Climbed this route yesterday and had a great time swinging leads and taking in the views. Not sure if the route has cleaned up a lot since previous commentators but this route's rock/pro is on par with backcountry AZ climbing. Sure there is some loose rock on the route but there are plenty of good (obvious) holds to use and the rock did not detract from my experience. Like others we did get a rope stuck so be prepared / understand how to deal with this before climbing this route. I highly recommend a helmet because more than likely when you pull your ropes some rock will come down with them.
By nflick
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Feb 28, 2016

As of 2/28/2016, the right bolt at the belay station at the top of P3/bottom of P4 is loose. It only moves back and forth 1 to 1.5 millimeters, but I expect with the quality of the rock it will work itself looser over time. Be careful.
By Jul S
Jan 17, 2017
rating: 5.9- 5c 17 VI 16 HVS 4c PG13

P3 - Bolt 11 is NOT up and right from bolt 10; it is straight right. After traversing to bolt 10, don't climb up to the ledge above the alcove, but continue traversing right (below the alcove) to find the 11th bolt around the corner. Then the anchors are at the next, larger alcove.

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