Hangboard: rest between reps/sets question

I began my first serious effort at periodization in late January. I'm in the midst of my hypertrophy phase now and am wondering about the rest between each rep.

I've been doing 5 x 10 seconds with 10 seconds between each rep, then 3 minutes rest between each set.

I know that the Anderson brothers' rc.com article advocates 5 seconds rest between reps plus 2 minutes rest between sets... but I've seen other sources (like Dave Macleod's new book) advocate longer rests between reps (I think Macleod says 1 minute between reps!).

I decided to sort of split the difference with my reasoning being that each hang could be of higher intensity with the slightly longer rests.

So, two questions:
1. Is there good rationale to do 5 seconds rest instead of 10 between reps (and 2 minutes instead of 3 between sets)?

2. Unrelated... I currently don't have a good option for pinch grip. Has anyone attempted to use the free hanging block method (with weight added)? I realize it's not as specific, but I wonder it it could be effective nonetheless. If anyone has used it, I'd be curious if they use a parallel sided block or one that was slightly tapered (like in sonnie trotter's photos here (scroll down):
sonnietrotter.com/2009/03/0…

Ah, one more question:
3. How many of you hangboarders do the pinky/ring pair? It feels tweaky to me and I'm debating whether the injury risk is worth it since I would rarely grab a two-finger pocket with that pair.

Hi Victor,

1. You need to decide what you're training for and develop a protocol that supports those goals. IMO, Dave's protocol is probably more of a recruitment exercise than hypertrophy.

2. No. If you use the block system, I would suggest hanging them from above, like rock rings, and hanging off of them (adding or subtracting weight as necessary). The way Sonny is using them in the photo (hands below his waist) is not very specific to rock climbing. If you use a parallel sided block, I would consider putting some grip tape on it to improve your chances of holding on.

3. I do not. I've tried it, and I think it is a waste of an exercise. Train something more specific instead. I have used that pair exactly one time on real rock, and it wasn't a limiting factor in that instance.

Finally, are the routes on your personal page representative of your climbing ability?

agree w/ mono on pretty much everything, except maybe #3. it depends a bit on the routes you are doing. the pinky/ring combo can be helpful for flared tips cracks where you are forced to go thumbs up, and the only combo you can get in is these 2 fingers. fairly rare for the most part, but if you do a lot of shallow, flared tips jamming it can be worthwhile.

also, with the pinches, you can use blocks that are tied to cords that go up and over a pulley and down to some weights. that works pretty well.

one last thing, for me the longer rests, ie 10 sec, (between reps) are pretty key to being able to grab a pinch of chalk between each hang. liquid chalk is pretty helpful before each set. i usually go 2 minutes between sets.

The rationale for rest between reps is based primarily on practicallity, comparisons to standard weightlifting, and mimicking climbing. If someone has a better justification for a different amount of rest, you should go for it. This was our thinking:

Shorter rest means more reps in a shorter period of time... a minute rest between reps would add almost 2 hours to our "advanced" workout time...that's too much IMO, so you would have to reduce the volume to be able to finish the workout in a reasonable amount of time.

In typical weightlifting, you don't really rest between reps, you just crank them out one after another. Granted, that is not isometric training, but that's what our thinking was.

In climbing a route, you get very little rest between repetitions, we wanted the rest to be as short as possible to mimic climbing.

That was our reasoning, again, if someone has a physiologically-based reason for changing that, I'd love to hear it. I'm sure studies have been done on optimum rest length, but I bet the studies were poorly conceived, executed and reported, which is typically the case in sports "science".

PS, I agree with Mono that the one minute rest that you describe is getting closer to recruitment training than strength/hypertrophy.

For a pinch grip, I just screwed a couple holds onto the wall like this:

Close up of two hangboards.

Oh, and I haven't done the pinky/ring grip for a couple years. I think it may be beneficial if you do lots of hard crack climbing...often the ring/pinky pair fit in pin scars that the other fingers don't, but it's somewhat rare. Depends on where you climb, and your body type. The boys that climb at Wild Iris use that combo quite a bit, especially if they have large fingers (EDITED TO ADD: however, those guys are absolute freaks of nature with the strongest fingers/most powerful routes I've ever seen, and they get injured often). I've watched Leif Gasch do mono moves off his ring finger routinely because he's a big guy and his middle finger is too big. For many folks a middle finger mono is as strong or stronger than the ring/pinky, so it may not be worth training it. If your ring/pinky combo is stronger than your mono, and if you climb on small pockets a lot, you should train it.

slim wrote: the pinky/ring combo can be helpful for flared tips cracks where you are forced to go thumbs up, and the only combo you can get in is these 2 fingers. fairly rare for the most part, but if you do a lot of shallow, flared tips jamming it can be worthwhile.

+1 to this. Sorry, I posted before reading what Slim had written.

Slim's point is valid. Ring/pinky is a common fingerlocking technique, and now that you mention I recall using those a fair amount. EDIT TO ADD: I still don;t train it though, and I think its a waste of an exercise. IME, you only have enough stamina to fit 5-7 grip positions in. After that you're just flailing. I don't think Ring/Pinky fits into the top 7.

Mike Anderson wrote:...I'm sure studies have been done on optimum rest length, but I bet the studies were poorly conceived, executed and reported, which is typically the case in sports "science".

As far as I've been able to find, no useful studies have been done on isometric contractions that compare duration, intensity, qty of reps/sets and rest intervals (there is a ton of such data on dynamic contractions). The studies I've seen only compare isometric to concentric/eccentric, usually using a single rep to failure in 30-40 seconds, which is not at all specific to climbing. The good news is that there is evidence that isometric contractions are superior to dynamic contractions for the specific joint angles trained (suggesting that heavy finger rolls are in fact a waste of time as my experience has shown).

Hey Victor,

I also follow the Anderson brothers advanced hangboard workout method as shown in the RC.com article. This has 3 sec rest between reps, 2 min rest between sets, and 3 min rest between exercises. One difference is I do 3 min rest between sets because I often hangboard with a partner and that seems to be the minimum amount of time it takes to switch weights, brush holds, and have your partner go before your next set.

Sonnie's pinch grip method looks like it would be very difficult to grip the triangle block in exactly the same method between sets so it would be difficult to have a consistent workout. As you get more tired it seems that you would end up pinching more and more of the triangle. Even in his pictures it looks like he is holding it differently.

I've had great results from hangboarding. It is the only training I do for climbing routes besides bouldering at the gym, and I seem to tend to climb my hardest routes at the beginning / middle of my hangboard cycle. However this means that I am probably over-training at the end of my hangboard cycle.

So if you choose to climb at the same time period as your hangboard workouts be careful to avoid overtraining. I will hangboard tues & thurs and climb routes on Sat / Sun which I believe is setting me up for overtraining and reduced performance at the end of my hangboard cycle.

Oh also for exercises I do:
Warmup medium open hand crimp - no weight added
Small open hand crimp
Middle-Ring Pocket
Index Middle Pocket
Pinch

Mono:
Personal page? I guess you mean my site contributions, which are few...

My sport climbing ability level before I started this cycle was probably 11a/b OS, 12a/b RP.

Grade progression bio in a nutshell: began climbing in summer 2002, advanced to mid-12 RP by spring 2004. Attempted first periodization cycle in winter 2005 and was derailed during max recruitment when I broke both legs (tib/fibs, calcaneus, ankle, plus MRSA on both sides) in a skiing accident in March 05. After couple years rehab to get back to walking normally, I returned to climbing. I've been climbing regularly again since 2007 and have battled a few nagging injuries, some related to previous injuries, some not. Since the accident, my best RP is 12a, though I haven't really dedicated myself to climbing like I did in the old days...

I am hopeful that being more disciplined with my training can help me minimize nagging injuries (I've had finger/elbow issues in the last 2.5 years) and get me back into the 12+ range and beyond.

Pinky/ring combo:
I thought about the pinky down jam. I am rarely on thin cracks these days, something likely to remain the case as I doubt my feet/toes could handle thin crack climbing. So I'll skip that grip, I suppose.

Right now, I'm doing 6 grips:
4 fing open hang, 1st pair, 3rd pair, full crimp, sloper, 3 finger open hang. I think I'll sub out 3rd pair for 2nd pair.

5 vs 10 second rest:
Slim, I agree on the 10 seconds being a nice amount of time to chalk. It also allows me to flex my fingers and recover just a little bit so that my hangs are a little higher intensity.
Mike, I wondered if the comparison was drawn from weightlifting. That makes sense. I never considered doing it with 1 minute rest, as that seemed quite a different thing. Have you read Macleod's new book? He pretty much says what you say regarding the short rest being more specific to climbing. He also says that he does hangboard workouts for eight months out of the year!

I think I'll try the 5 second rest on my next workout and see how it goes.

Pinch Grip:
Yeah, I still don't know what to do on this. I don't think pinch grips are really that essential to the type of climbing I do, though I could be wrong. Mike/Mark - I notice that one of you has tilted pinch grips (Mark) and the other doesn't. Reasons? Plain ol' brotherly conflict? Also, Mike - do you use the holds on the top board or the bottom board for pinches?

Disturbing the Peace:
I'm doing the anderson's beginner hangboard workout, roughly. And I put 72 hours between hangboard workouts (Mon/Thurs/Sun). Do you do ARC during your hangboard phase? I noticed in another thread that Mark does not. I've been debating doing ARC on the days after my hangboard workouts, but I fear that might be overtraining...

Oh, and my current warm-up entails push-ups, pull-ups, some light hangs, and 2 x 5 minute "Moving Hangs" (from Horst's book): feet on a chair beneath the board, 20-25 hand movements, shakeout for 10-15 seconds, repeat until at 5 minutes. I rest 3 minutes between those sets, then 10 minutes before my workout. I know that ARCing would be more ideal, but I've been limited to warming up at home...

Victor,

I can't explain why Mike's board is less awesome than mine. You'll have to wait for that :) My pinches are designed for optimal ergonomics. If you hold your hands over your head in a relaxed pinch grip, look at the angle of rotation of your palms, and the plane that your fingers and thumb are in. I've tried to orient my pinches to be in the same plane & angle of rotation.

The reason I asked about your ability level, is that a lot of people ask for hangboard advice when they should be spending their precious time working on their technique. If you've read Dave's book, I'm sure you've noticed that theme in his writing as well. So you need to decide for yourself (another one of his themes) if hangboarding is right for you. IMO, based on what you've told me, your are right on the fence. Generally I would suggest that a climber pursue more movement-specific options until they hit a plateau. Its not clear to me that you are at a plateau, so I'm not convinced that hangboarding is the most effective use of your time.

It sounds like you aren't doing middle/ring pair? That is certainly far more important than Ring/Pinky.

Mark,

I see what you mean about the ergonomics. I'm leaning toward trying to build something like that on my board. I use the Metolius simulator...

Regarding the middle pair - I've only done 3 hangboard workouts. I did the middle pair in one of them. The other two I stupidly reasoned that I had it covered by doing 1st and 3rd pair. I'll change that.

And you're probably right about me being on the fence. However, back when I was sport climbing at Rumney in 2004, I did plateau at 12c, and I don't think I'm far off that level now(I haven't seriously projected anything since pre-injury). But finger strength has always been a weak link for me, and given my current time constraints, I think the hangboard is an effective use of my time.

And yeah, yeah, I read all of Dave's yammering about movement skill. But what does he know? :)

(In a nod to movement-skill-building, I will be bouldering outside for my max recruitment phase)

Victor McConnell wrote:And yeah, yeah, I read all of Dave's yammering about movement skill. But what does he know? :)

:)

By the way... Mark, do you still avoid any other climbing during hypertrophy? No ARC (besides warm-up)?

while we are kind-of on the subject, do any of you guys have a hard time with all 4 fingers in an open hand hang? i pretty much eliminated it because my pinkies are so short compared to my other fingers that i end up in a wierd position. i am way, way stronger on 3 finger open than 4 finger open. just curious.

victor, i think you are probably in a pretty good level to begin the hangboarding. for me, i would stall out at around 12a on fingery routes and the hangboard seemed to help break that plateau for me. good luck and keep us posted on your results.

Hate to break it to you Slim, but you obviously have a freakish midget pinky finger.

Seriously though... I am much stronger on 4F OH:
On my 4F OH small edge, I add 15lbs.
On my 3F OH small edge, I subtract 10lbs.

And Slim - I guess you've tried 5 seconds rest and 10 seconds rest and concluded you like 10 seconds better?

EDIT - my 4F OH looks similar to Mark's below. My pinky is about 1 inch shorter than my ring and about 1.5 inches shorter than middle.

Victor McConnell wrote:By the way... Mark, do you still avoid any other climbing during hypertrophy? No ARC (besides warm-up)?

Yes.

My pinky is ~1" shorter. I do what I call anopen crimp, with I&P open, & MR half-closed:

open crimp

victor thanks for the buzz kill, i think i am going to go home and saw my other fingers off a bit shorter... :)

i have played around quite a bit with the rep and rest lengths. i also made sort of a hybrid routine for a season where i didn't really have time for a full macro-cycle, and it actually worked really well. here is an example of it. i basically did 3 sets of each grip with a 2 minute rest between sets (which helps give enough times to add the weights and grab a quick swig of water).

20 seconds on, 10 seconds off, 6 reps (2 min rest)
10 seconds on, 5 seconds off, 6 reps (2 min rest)
5 seconds on, 10 seconds off, 6 reps (2 min rest)

(quick edit - my pinky is about 1.5" shorter. to hang 4F open, i have to angle my wrists and elbows a fair bit outwards. i can probably hang 50 lbs more with just my 3F open)

Victor McConnell wrote: Disturbing the Peace: I'm doing the anderson's beginner hangboard workout, roughly. And I put 72 hours between hangboard workouts (Mon/Thurs/Sun). Do you do ARC during your hangboard phase? I noticed in another thread that Mark does not. I've been debating doing ARC on the days after my hangboard workouts, but I fear that might be overtraining...

To me this sounds ideal, if you're willing to sacrifice outdoor climbing during the hangboard phase. In the future I may trend towards this schedule. I boulder to warm up prior to my hangboard workout, but it seems that ARC'ing prior to your workout might work well although ARC'ing on a hangboard seems about the most boring thing I can think of.

i've done a fair bit of ARCing on the HB and it worked great. definitely helps to have a movie or tunes. it's kind of tough on your shoulders (like HB in general) if you aren't careful. another warmup that i used to do was a 30 minute deal of:

30 seconds jug hang w/ 3 pullups, 10 pushups during next 30 sec.
30 seconds jug hang w/ 3 pullups, 10 situps during next 30 sec.

the pace works out to where you are constanly busy and it gets your breathing going a bit.

Read the second post on this page

IMO, you are training recruitment.

For dynamic contractions, 8-12 reps is ideal for hypertrophy if you want fancy-looking Schwarzenegger muscles. 6-8 reps is ideal if you want hypertrophy in muscles that will actually be used to do stuff.

Nobody knows what is optimal for isometric contractions. If you figure it out, let us know!

onlineclimbingcoach.blogspo…