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Sep 30, 2016
We are getting ready to replace one of our local crags with glueins due to softer rock and high traffic. Typically I would use Powers AC100 but I am questioning my choice due to the wild temperature swings this wall experiences. The wall is south facing and sees rock temperatures over 100 in the summer and -30 in the winter. Will my current glue choice handle this or is there a better option? Are glueins even suitable in this situation? C.Williams
From the Climber Cave
Joined Jul 31, 2013
1,029 points
Administrator
Sep 30, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Enter the Colossus
RedHead A7 is good stuff to check out too... not familiar with the Powers stuff. Morgan Patterson
Joined Oct 13, 2009
8,902 points
Sep 30, 2016
Read their ESR reports.

ESR Report

All adhesive anchor systems assessed under AC308/ACI 355.4 must pass a freezing and thawing test to ensure performance in cold weather environments. ACI 355.4 standard recognizes the use of adhesive anchors in concrete that may experience inservice temperatures as lows as -40°F.

Also under the rules established by ACI 355.4, it is no longer permissible to publish bond stresses suitable only for “room temperature” applications. The minimum long-term temperature for which the system must be qualified is 110°F.
alpinejason
From Minneapolis
Joined Apr 25, 2010
149 points
Sep 30, 2016
The epoxyacrylate we use is rated -40°C to + 80°C, the vinylester we use is better, -40°C to +120°C.
There´s plenty of glued fasteners experiencing worse than you get, the rock and the bolt don´t actually change temperature that much anyway.
Jim Titt
From Germany
Joined Nov 10, 2009
365 points
Sep 30, 2016
Great info, thanks guys! C.Williams
From the Climber Cave
Joined Jul 31, 2013
1,029 points
Administrator
Oct 2, 2016
C.Williams wrote:
We are getting ready to replace one of our local crags with glueins due to softer rock and high traffic. Typically I would use Powers AC100 but I am questioning my choice due to the wild temperature swings this wall experiences. The wall is south facing and sees rock temperatures over 100 in the summer and -30 in the winter. Will my current glue choice handle this or is there a better option? Are glueins even suitable in this situation?


If you have "softer" rock, then glue-ins are far more suitable than expansion bolts.

As others have already posted, most construction glues' temperature ranges exceed what your crag will see.

I don't like AC100 since it sets too quickly, IMO. I prefer a slower-setting glue, so I can drill, brush, blow, glue, adjust-as-needed, and then jug to the next placement without having the glue harden in the nozzle. I can bolt in one pass, not two.

I like the Hilti RE-500, although I was told that Hilti has recently discontinued it. Anyone have information on that?
John Byrnes
From Fort Collins, CO
Joined Dec 11, 2007
451 points
Oct 2, 2016
John Byrnes wrote:
If you have "softer" rock, then glue-ins are far more suitable than expansion bolts. As others have already posted, most construction glues' temperature ranges exceed what your crag will see. I don't like AC100 since it sets too quickly, IMO. I prefer a slower-setting glue, so I can drill, brush, blow, glue, adjust-as-needed, and then jug to the next placement without having the glue harden in the nozzle. I can bolt in one pass, not two. I like the Hilti RE-500, although I was told that Hilti has recently discontinued it. Anyone have information on that?


Been replaced with RE 500 V3, shorter working time so you might have to speed up!
Rest of the world just drills and preps on the way up and glues on the way down, that way you can use any old cheapo stuff:-)
Jim Titt
From Germany
Joined Nov 10, 2009
365 points
Administrator
Oct 2, 2016
Jim Titt wrote:
Rest of the world just drills and preps on the way up and glues on the way down, that way you can use any old cheapo stuff:-)

Maybe if you're bolting an 100m sport climb with bolts every 2m, but a standard cartridge epoxy lasts me 60 12mm x 3.25" holes. I typically like to drill enough holes so I can use the entire cartridge in one instance so I only need to use one nozzle, and that means I am gluing several routes.
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
1,214 points
Oct 2, 2016
20 kN wrote:
Maybe if you're bolting an 100m sport climb with bolts every 2m, but a standard cartridge epoxy lasts me 60 12mm x 3.25" holes. I typically like to drill enough holes so I can use the entire cartridge in one instance so I only need to use one nozzle, and that means I am gluing several routes.


72 bolts on 4 routes with 3 tubes and one nozzle with normal vinylester, you just got to be organised! Do the rope changeovers cleanly and don´t hang up on anything.
Jim Titt
From Germany
Joined Nov 10, 2009
365 points
Administrator
Oct 3, 2016
Jim Titt wrote:
Been replaced with RE 500 V3, shorter working time so you might have to speed up!


Damn, I'm a slow-poke.

Jim Titt wrote:
Rest of the world just drills and preps on the way up and glues on the way down, that way you can use any old cheapo stuff:-)


That often works but depending on the topography of the route, and where your temporary intermediates are located (to hold you next to the rock) and how much swinging you need to do to get to them, it's quite possible that your rope will hit a bolt you just glued, knocking it off vertical or possibly pulling it partially out of the hole.

I like (drilling and) gluing on the way up, so that when I unclip from the intermediates the rope and my rig moves away from the wall and there's little possibility of hitting the bolt before the glue cures.
John Byrnes
From Fort Collins, CO
Joined Dec 11, 2007
451 points
Oct 3, 2016
John Byrnes wrote:
Damn, I'm a slow-poke. That often works but depending on the topography of the route, and where your temporary intermediates are located (to hold you next to the rock) and how much swinging you need to do to get to them, it's quite possible that your rope will hit a bolt you just glued, knocking it off vertical or possibly pulling it partially out of the hole. I like (drilling and) gluing on the way up, so that when I unclip from the intermediates the rope and my rig moves away from the wall and there's little possibility of hitting the bolt before the glue cures.


If you used my bolts it wouldn´t be a problem, they lock into the hole:-)
Jim Titt
From Germany
Joined Nov 10, 2009
365 points
Administrator
Oct 3, 2016
Jim Titt wrote:
If you used my bolts it wouldn´t be a problem, they lock into the hole:-)


If I used your bolts, they'd corrode and break off in a few years. ;-)

Martin's bolts have a light interference fit for the last centimeter. This keeps them from sliding out of overhanging rock while the glue cures.

I like it because I can put the bolt in the hole most of the way, verify that I have enough glue in the hole (we have occasional voids), and make sure the eye is vertical before I tap it in place. If something isn't right, I can pull it out and remedy the problem.
John Byrnes
From Fort Collins, CO
Joined Dec 11, 2007
451 points
Administrator
Oct 3, 2016
Jim Titt wrote:
with normal vinylester,

I thought you were talking about 10:1 epoxyacrylate. I dont like the 10:1s very much as they tend to set up in as little as three minutes in hot weather. The 1:1 pure epoxies give me a leisurely 30 minutes which is enough time for anyone to get the job done with one nozzle. Vinylester doesent seem to be very common in the USA--I dont know any developers that use it.
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
1,214 points
Oct 4, 2016
20 kN wrote:
I thought you were talking about 10:1 epoxyacrylate. I dont like the 10:1s very much as they tend to set up in as little as three minutes in hot weather. The 1:1 pure epoxies give me a leisurely 30 minutes which is enough time for anyone to get the job done with one nozzle. Vinylester doesent seem to be very common in the USA--I dont know any developers that use it.


I use both epoxyacrylate and vinylester, depends mainly on what the prices are at the time. More vinylester these days as epoxyacrylate has become expensive in the last few years for some reason. Epoxyacrylate is only a modified vinyester and doesn´t offer much added value for bolting.
Vinyester like Powers AC100Pro are more and more popular in construction over here because it has a fire certificate whereas the polyester like AC100E and the epoxies don´t so the availability is better.
Nearly every bolt from Europe was originally certified with vinylester anyway, not many people bother with epoxies.
We like a fairly fast cure, you can climb the route ten minutes after it´s bolted or don´t have to worry about other people jumping on it while your busy elsewhere.
Jim Titt
From Germany
Joined Nov 10, 2009
365 points
Administrator
Oct 4, 2016
Jim Titt wrote:
Been replaced with RE 500 V3, shorter working time so you might have to speed up!


I contacted Hilti and while the cure-time of the RE-500 V3 is half that of the old version, the working time is still 25-30 minutes, so I don't have to move faster. ;-)
John Byrnes
From Fort Collins, CO
Joined Dec 11, 2007
451 points
Oct 4, 2016
John Byrnes wrote:
I contacted Hilti and while the cure-time of the RE-500 V3 is half that of the old version, the working time is still 25-30 minutes, so I don't have to move faster. ;-)


Tortoise:-)
Jim Titt
From Germany
Joined Nov 10, 2009
365 points
Administrator
Oct 4, 2016
Jim Titt wrote:
Tortoise:-)


One of the reasons we called the first Ti bolts Tortugas.
John Byrnes
From Fort Collins, CO
Joined Dec 11, 2007
451 points
Administrator
Oct 8, 2016
C.Williams wrote:
We are getting ready to replace one of our local crags with glueins due to softer rock and high traffic. Typically I would use Powers AC100 but I am questioning my choice due to the wild temperature swings this wall experiences. The wall is south facing and sees rock temperatures over 100 in the summer and -30 in the winter. Will my current glue choice handle this or is there a better option? Are glueins even suitable in this situation?

Temperature compensation is a standard metric that pretty much all epoxy manufactures measure and publish. The info can be found in the user manual. This is the table for the Powers AC100+ Gold as you are asking about:




powers.com/product_8486_8490.p...
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
1,214 points
Oct 9, 2016
Again, thanks for all the awesome info, definitely feeling good about my epoxy choice. The local community is still firmly anti gluein (something something freeze thaw) but hopefully that attitude will change. Alaska is still a little behind on best bolting practices, we still have developers using mixed metals in a wet environment!

On a semi related note, what are the pros and cons to 10mm SS316 u-bolts for top anchors?
C.Williams
From the Climber Cave
Joined Jul 31, 2013
1,029 points
Administrator
Oct 9, 2016
C.Williams wrote:
On a semi related note, what are the pros and cons to 10mm SS316 u-bolts for top anchors?

Dont use them to lower off of directly. You'll wear down the bolt and the only way to replace it will be to cut it off. Attach chain and quicklinks to lower off of.
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
1,214 points
Oct 9, 2016
20 kN wrote:
Dont use them to lower off of directly. You'll wear down the bolt and the only way to replace it will be to cut it off. Attach chain and quicklinks to lower off of.


For sure! I was thinking one vertical with a second below horizontally positioned and chain connecting to a large ss link on the lower u bolt. Hope that makes sense.
C.Williams
From the Climber Cave
Joined Jul 31, 2013
1,029 points
Administrator
Oct 9, 2016
C.Williams wrote:
For sure! I was thinking one vertical with a second below horizontally positioned and chain connecting to a large ss link on the lower u bolt. Hope that makes sense.

That's fine. Where are you finding 316 U bolts?
20 kN
From Hawaii
Joined Feb 2, 2009
1,214 points
Oct 9, 2016
Local fastener supplier. They specialize in marine grade fasteners and offer 10mm stock u-bolts. 115mm legs with 90mm spacing. About $5 a piece. C.Williams
From the Climber Cave
Joined Jul 31, 2013
1,029 points
Oct 15, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Chiller Pillar, Adirondacks
Avoid u-bolts on softer rock. For limestone or less the recommendation is to drill bolt placements 8" or more apart.

If you're drilling into granite then u-bolts certainly work.
TheIceManCometh
From Albany, NY
Joined Aug 15, 2011
634 points
Administrator
Oct 16, 2016
TheIceManCometh wrote:
Avoid u-bolts on softer rock. For limestone or less the recommendation is to drill bolt placements 8" or more apart. If you're drilling into granite then u-bolts certainly work.


I don't agree with this at all. It's possibly a good rule-of-thumb for expansion bolts in bad rock, but not with glue-ins.

For example, Titanium U-bolts have been used for decades in Thai limestone and are still bomber.

If the rock is laced with fractures, a.k.a. choss, then perhaps I can see this. But for monolithic limestone or sandstone, it's overkill IMO.
John Byrnes
From Fort Collins, CO
Joined Dec 11, 2007
451 points
Nov 1, 2016
Rock Climbing Photo: Climbing in Smuggler's Notch
TheIceManCometh wrote:
Avoid u-bolts on softer rock. For limestone or less the recommendation is to drill bolt placements 8" or more apart.


I don't believe that the chain sets offered by Fixe or Raumer have the bolt hole distances at 8" (I use them all the time...I guess I need to measure). See Fixe Tradition Anchors.

Where does this 8" recommendation come from and why?
Brian in SLC
Joined Oct 6, 2003
13,072 points


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