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f. The Guides' Wall (Madame G's)
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Friends and Lovers 

YDS: 5.9 French: 5c Ewbanks: 17 UIAA: VI ZA: 17 British: HVS 5a PG13

Type:  Trad, 3 pitches, 230'
Original:  YDS: 5.9 French: 5c Ewbanks: 17 UIAA: VI ZA: 17 British: HVS 5a PG13 [details]
FA: Ron Sacks, Anne Dubats, Mike Sawicky, Rick Cronk 1978
Page Views: 3,021
Submitted By: Guy H. on May 4, 2006

You & This Route  |  Other Opinions (65)
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Jim at the crux


Swain gives this climb a 'R' rating for the first pitch. I found enough gear to make this a reasonable lead.

Use the same access trail as for Minty. This is about a 9-min. walk from the Uberfall, or a 5-min. walk from where the East Trapps Connector Trail meets the carriage road. At the cliff, walk 35' left of Minty to the start of the route.

Start about 15'-20' right of Snooky's Return below some shallow right-facing corners.

P1: Head up into the right-facing corner above. The first crux comes at a weird move near an overlap. Place gear often in this area, since the gear is a little on the shallow and thin side. A 2nd crux comes at a committing smear and high step move (greasy feet). A #2 ballnut is useful for the final face, before the traverse left to the Snooky's Return bolt anchors. A fun pitch. 5.9, 100'.

P2/P3: Move the belay left about 30'. Climb the large left-facing dihedral to the top. (5.5)

Rappel over Snooky's Return.


Located 20' right of Snooky's Return and 35' left of Minty.


Standard Rack, with extra thin gear...

Photos of Friends and Lovers Slideshow Add Photo
Rock Climbing Photo: End of the Friends and Lovers' first pitch.
End of the Friends and Lovers' first pitch.
Rock Climbing Photo: Tiffany on Friends and Lovers
Tiffany on Friends and Lovers
Rock Climbing Photo: At the first crux on P1...
At the first crux on P1...

Comments on Friends and Lovers Add Comment
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By Tim Schafstall
Apr 2, 2008

Super first pitch, but this climb stays wet longer than any other in the Gunks (even Hawk) due to a persistent drip about 15-20 feet up.
Lowe Balls helpful on this one.
By losbill
Nov 14, 2010
rating: 5.9 5c 17 VI 17 HVS 5a

Minty P2 and Snooky's Return P3 trees are dead and webbing and rings are no longer on them. Top and take short walk climber's right to Madame G's rap.
By rogerbenton
Apr 14, 2013
rating: 5.9 5c 17 VI 17 HVS 5a PG13

I'm giving the first pitch a PG-13: there is gear enough to keep you off the deck but there are definitely ugly falls possible, and on less than stellar placements.

Fun pitch, great face climbing.
By David Stowe
Apr 27, 2013

I'm not sure what gear you were using, but for me every placement on the first pitch is rock solid gear. There are no iffy placements on this pitch and there is no specialty gear needed. For some reason this pitch got an R in the old Swain guide. This pitch is PG and only because of the crux, which requires that you make a move or two with your feet over the gear. Other than that you are dong beautiful aesthetic face moves on good gear.
By Alex Jacques
From: Burlington, CT
Oct 13, 2013

I guess I can see an argument that this climb is PG-13, but the falls would all be clean. Fun and sketchy crux move (the greasy foot one) above gear. Plug smart and don't worry about it.
By rogerbenton
Nov 14, 2013
rating: 5.9 5c 17 VI 17 HVS 5a PG13

FWIW, Grey Dick calls it PG but also calls out ballnutz for crux pro.
By Paul NotPaul
From: New York, New York
Oct 6, 2014

On October 2014 my buddy took a fall from right above the first crux on a cam placed under the first slight overhang. The fall had him slam into the sloped face about 10 feet below the overhang. He slammed on his foot and his ankle puffed up big time. He couldn't walk and the day ended with a trip on the back of a mohonk pickup. Orthopedist visits are next.

5.9 R
By BrianKostelnik57
May 4, 2015

I thought the first pitch was pretty fantastic and exciting face climbing. The pro at the first crux is a little fiddly. Grey Dick recommends Ballnutz, but I found a fit for a C3. The second crux is thin climbing with gear below your feet that can be backed up. Both cruxes require extended sections of thin 5.7ish climbing well above gear.
By David Stowe
May 9, 2015

If you are calling the first overlap at about 25 feet the first crux then the gear there is great. Not only do you have rock solid placement in a horizontal, but there is also an obvious nut placement a few feet above that in a vertical crack that you can place before committing to any moves, you could hang a car off of that piece. You also get another good cam a few feet higher after mover over that overlap. The only spot on the this pitch where you are doing any challenging moves over gear is at the "bear hug" crux moving off of the ledge and that gear is also rock solid and can be doubled up. I would think this route to be a bad choice for someone breaking into the grade, but for anyone who is solid on 9 or higher they should have no problem safely leading this and finding very good gear the whole way. Definitely not R. You never go more than 10 feet without the ability to place a good piece.
By John Gassel
From: Boston, MA
Sep 8, 2015
rating: 5.9 5c 17 VI 17 HVS 5a

I second the previous post by David. I was going to express almost the exact same thoughts.

A fun route to get you a little sweaty at the bear hug move. It's got a few runouts but it can be protected safely.

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