Euro Death Knot, Flat Overhand, Barrel Knot evolution
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UPDATE:In follow up to my earlier post, my research has revealed that I am, happily, wrong about the flat overhand. |
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I predict ten pages, mostly repeating everything that has been said before. |
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Where were you when I asked this question? |
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How do you feel about the figure 8 bend (also called the flemish bend)? So both ends come together to make a figure 8 follow-through? I use it almost exclusively and I know a lot of people get it confused with the flat 8 which is not good for this purpose. |
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You have any data for this knot? Pull tests, rope diameters, wet/dry, etc |
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Nathanael wrote:You have any data for this knot? Pull tests, rope diameters, wet/dry, etcNo hard data on strength or anything, was hoping someone might have that. In this R&I article, they claim the figure-8 bend is more reliable than an EDK. I figure if I tie myself in with a figure-8 follow-through, then that's the best knot I can use to trust my body load on. |
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Tim Cooney wrote: No hard data on strength or anything, was hoping someone might have that. In this R&I article, they claim the figure-8 bend is more reliable than an EDK. I figure if I tie myself in with a figure-8 follow-through, then that's the best knot I can use to trust my body load on.Sorry meant to direct that towards Topher regarding the barrel knot. The fig-8 bend is certainly strong enough, but unlike the other knots in the discussion it is not "flat", meaning it is more likely to get stuck when pulled over edges. The R&I articles are pretty poor attempts at addressing this topic (you can find discussion of this elsewhere), I would not put much stock in them. |
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Nathanael wrote:You have any data for this knot? Pull tests, rope diameters, wet/dry, etc Edit: Directed at topher, regarding the barrel knot (flat double overhand) Nathanael, I don't have data for the knot, but it is being taught as a replacement for the flat overhand by the Association of Canadian Mountain Guides. |
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Tim Cooney wrote:How do you feel about the figure 8 bend (also called the flemish bend)? So both ends come together to make a figure 8 follow-through? I use it almost exclusively and I know a lot of people get it confused with the flat 8 which is not good for this purpose.That's a bomber knot, but as was pointed out above, doesn't have a "flat" side, so is more likely to jam when pulling over edges. |
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To be clear, this post and my blog addressing the issue is not intended to rehash the question of what knot is better, but to point out that the flat overhand for rappel use is likely going the way of the standard bowline for tie in purposes - it works, but it isn't the best choice for most people, most of the time. |
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I read your article, and without any data it is pretty unconvincing. You have numerous duplicative statements that are not backed up by anything other than opinion. |
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topher donahue wrote:To be clear, this post and my blog addressing the issue is not intended to rehash the question of what knot is better, but to point out that the flat overhand for rappel use is likely going the way of the standard bowline for tie in purposes - it works, but it isn't the best choice for most people, most of the time.I mean that's exactly the question you're rehashing... you can't say the flat overhand is outdated without a suitable replacement. And you can't publish a book claiming that the barrel knot is "without the finicky nature and tendency to fail" [compared to flat overhand] and that "the barrel knot is safer" [compared to the flat overhand] without any actual evidence. |
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Ooooo I like that. Love the flat overhand but it's always in the back of my mind. That looks pretty bomber. |
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Nathanael wrote: I mean that's exactly the question you're rehashing... you can't say the flat overhand is outdated without a suitable replacement. And you can't publish a book claiming that the barrel knot is "without the finicky nature and tendency to fail" [compared to flat overhand] and that "the barrel knot is safer" [compared to the flat overhand] without any actual evidence.BINGO!!! +10 |
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topher donahue wrote: Nathanael, I don't have data for the knot, but it is being taught as a replacement for the flat overhand by the Association of Canadian Mountain Guides.You seem to discredit guide associations by saying what they've taught for extended periods in the past - bowline tie-in, etc - isn't actually the best practice, and then use the ACMG as your only argument for why the barrel knot should be used over the EDK. As others have stated, this claim should be backed up by test data |
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Sam Stephens wrote:Ooooo I like that. Love the flat overhand but it's always in the back of my mind. That looks pretty bomber.I mean the flat figure 8 "looks pretty bomber" if you don't know better. And some people who didn't know any better died because of it. I'm not saying the barrel knot is unsafe, my guess is it's about the same as a flat overhand. But I don't see how you could go around proselytising for it without any data. |
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This knot could be a reasonable knot for joining rappel ropes, though I will withhold judgment on that pending actual testing. |
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The europeans have done extensive testing on the flat over hand, the flat fishermans, and a new knot called the flat fish sandwich. Unfortunately BB isn't around to dig up the source because I'm too lazy. The flat fishermans, the knot in question, has a failure mode, but it's pretty far fetched and the probability of the failure mode is so small it's not worth worrying about. The flat overhand works, and works well at that. I will continue to use it because it's simple, well known, and work well. |
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following... |
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Ok, points taken. I'll find the data on the knot and repost. |
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eli poss wrote:The europeans have done extensive testing on the flat over hand, the flat fishermans, and a new knot called the flat fish sandwich. Unfortunately BB isn't around to dig up the source because I'm too lazy. The flat fishermans, the knot in question, has a failure mode, but it's pretty far fetched and the probability of the failure mode is so small it's not worth worrying about. The flat overhand works, and works well at that. I will continue to use it because it's simple, well known, and work well.You're right for the most part, with relevant links here: people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/hig… and gudelius.de/spst.htm But the flat fishermans is not the knot in question. The barrel knot is different, it's closer to a flat overhand than a flat fishermans (aka big flat fish). |