Dear Shelf Road Chiseler:

You suck. Please take your hold enhancing drill bit and shove it up your A$$. Sideways.

Since I took the photos in this thread I can say that there is NO DOUBT that this pocket has been doctored/enhanced/manufactured /chiseled . 3 very obvious drill marks . The first picture was taken with chalk in place -as I found it. I then washed the chalk with a couple of squirts of water. They say a picture is worth a thousand words...... I think these photos speak very clearly.
Chiseling does suck. I agree .

Lame!

Double Lame!! Now I'm all pissed off on a Sunday morning. Can't believe people would actually do that. I'll be headin down to Shelf soon, keeping a keen eye out for the MF.

Weak behavior. I mean, if you can't pull a move because the available holds are too small, then you can't do it. Why take it out on the rock?

Stich , The ego of the gutless scumbag drives his moronic actions in his quest to score a first ascent . Pitiful maggot.
Can you tell from my post what my position on chiselers is ? HHmmm..go figure.

There are a couple of dudes here in southern Arizona that will chop the bolts then fill the holds with epoxy.

Ah the slippery slope. Where do you draw the line. For over 2 decades it seems climbing has been slipping down little by little.

First off I have no skin in this game so taken with a grain of salt here's my .02.

I can recall in my early days of climbing mid 80's rap bolting was a new trend. There was definitely a clash between the old school new school climbers.

I got to the Black Hills the year after someone wanted to hook a new 5.12 route. The locals objected and ran him off claiming they would finish the route in better style. Using a power drill on lead was considered better style but oh the slippery slope. Before they were done the drill was hanging from above (Bosch from God they called it) justified by the grade 5.12. Oh the slippery slope.

Then another local used the BFG to put up a 5.11. And then we had the meeting and one of the Old Schoolers said enough what's next BFG on a 5.7.

Rap bolting was first brought to the Rushmore area on a 5.11 route but before long there were rap bolted 5.7's. The slope is slippery indeed.

It seems that everyone wants to do a FA and since we have slipped so far down the slope nothing is seen as off limits. If a 5.12er is putting up the route he will drill/chisel just enough to bring the route down to his level (as seen the unnatural state thread). Here you have a 5.11 climber drilling just enough to make the route work for him. When will we slip to the 5.7 climber bolting holds on rock to bring the route to their level.

Just some observations from the side of the slide. It's kinda like a train wreck you don't really want to see it but you can't help yourself form looking anyway.

Wow.
What an obvious drilled hold. What a shame.

I remember someone saying something once to the effect of:
"I don't like the idea of injury while climbing so much and I can't imagine the humiliation of it being on a well protected 5.8."

Hmmm... chipped down to 5.11a/b and likely overgraded since Shelf mostly is? Wow. So this is the new reality... chipping routes down to 5.11a/b?

I can't imagine ever chipping a route, and I sure can't imagine the humiliation of getting busted doing it down to 11a/b. It would be better just to lie and say you sent the route when you didn't and call it 5.13. At least then you are not 100% likely to get busted.

I kind of hope that the FA party did the drilling and not some random person coming by later and doing it en-retro. The former is much easier to fix. I vote for complete bolt removal and epoxy/rockdust if evidence really suggests that the FA party did this.
How hard is the climb wihtout the drilled holes? If it is significantly harder than 5.11a/b then obviously that was used on the FA and that's evidence enough that it was part of the route.

Tony B wrote:How hard is the climb wihtout the drilled holes?

Hard to say Tony, I'm guessing into the .12 range for sure. The hold was a sloper, it just did'nt have the nice incut in the back.

Tony B wrote: I vote for complete bolt removal and epoxy/rockdust if evidence really suggests that the FA party did this. How hard is the climb wihtout the drilled holes? If it is significantly harder than 5.11a/b then obviously that was used on the FA and that's evidence enough that it was part of the route.

Its a 1/2 star Shelf Road cram job, who'd want to put in the effort?
Here's how I imagine it:
5.9
5.9
5.9
5.9
5.9
5.10
5.12
5.8
5.8
5.7
5.6
5.6
anchors
So they think no one who really climbs .12 wants to get on this for one move, thus why not knock it down some. After all, its one amongst 1000, everyone has moved on away from the Bank, yada yada.....
Pack some epoxy into the chipped hold and reset it for how it was.
Calling *them* out (look up Disciples of Hell for clues) ought to nip this trend in the bud.

haha Mike, good guess. Actually it's more like:

20' of chunky, dirty 5.10 to a big ledge

15' traverse past the 5.11 crux to another ledge

20' of 5.9 to the anchors

HoseBeats wrote: Look in the New Mexico rock modification thread and you'll have to rethink that statement. DirtyLaundry has a stiffy for Timys glued and chipped routes. Sad, oh so sad.

I have a stiffy for non-black/white thinking.

Jay, I'm relying on my own views that I have formed from being immersed in this sport I love for over 30 years. Not trying to impress anyone. I am hopeful that whoever did this will think twice about it next time weather it be at Shelf or anywhere else for that matter.

This kind of thing shouldn't be swept under the rug, the only ones we have to answer to are our peers.

Bob Packwood wrote: What would be an example of a situation where the OP was remiss or premature in his attack?

I'm not referring to specifics, but many of these threads take a turn toward the witch hunt mentality. Rather than having an informed debate on ideas, people start with the "let's get him" posts and the level of discourse takes a dive.

Like dirtylaundry implied, few things in life are black and white. Almost everything has a shade of gray, and it's in debating the levels of gray-ness where true understanding can be found. It's no fun to have a shouting contest where everyone says the same thing, only each person says it louder and with more vehemence.

Jay Knower wrote: I'm not referring to specifics, but many of these threads take a turn toward the witch hunt mentality.

Well, this looks pretty darn specific...

If... she... weighs... the same as a duck,... she's made of wood.
And therefore?
A witch!

Jay,

Exactly. I can see how (drilling a pocket) in (limestone) on a (5.11) at (shelf road) is offensive to the (front range community) at (shelf road) on (new routes); however, the community has accepted(comfortizing) by (first ascentionist).

Actions like (gluing cobbles) in (conglomerate) on (any grade) at (maple canyon) is considered (best practice) in (Utah).

(bolting) used to be a big issue in the (united states), but not in (france). now, (bolting) is widely accepted practice, except (next to cracks), unless your in (certain sport climbing area) where it is (tolerated for convenience and safety).

Possesing (cannibis) in Colorado is a (misdemeanor), but in (Kanas), you get (jail time).

Jay Knower wrote:I don't know the route, and I have never climbed at Shelf, but I'm concerned with the group think displayed on this (and other) threads on this topic. Yes, chipping is bad. I agree. But, before you post, ask yourself if you are relying on received ideas and escalating the situation to impress your peers, or if you are looking at the situation clearheadedly and objectively.

Jay,
Can you specify what the groupthink is here?
-That chipping is not OK?

Who is escalating or trying to impress anyone?

What is your 'objective' view of this situation, or if you are kind enough to elaborate, what other opinions are failing in their objectivity?

dirtylaundry wrote:I can see how (drilling a pocket) in (limestone) on a (5.11) at (shelf road) is offensive to the (front range community)

Exactly, your other points are apples to oranges.

There is at least one possiblity for mistake in all of this. There is an old, obscure route that Disciples of Hell shares sections with. There is a slim chance, that this is a remnant of that route (albeit a VERY SLIM chance, since I think the drilled pocket is beyond the point where the two routes diverge. Maybe someone else could confirm this?) Either way, drilled pockets are lame and I hope that routes being put up nowadays are free of them.

Brian in SLC wrote: Well, this looks pretty darn specific... If... she... weighs... the same as a duck,... she's made of wood. And therefore? A witch!

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