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YDS: 5.11 French: 6c+ Ewbanks: 23 UIAA: VIII- ZA: 23 British: E4 5c

Type:  Sport, 1 pitch, 100'
Original:  YDS: 5.11c/d French: 7a Ewbanks: 24 UIAA: VIII ZA: 25 British: E4 6a [details]
FA: Richard Wright, 1998
Page Views: 12,725
Submitted By: Jesse Ryan on Apr 29, 2001

You & This Route  |  Other Opinions (326)
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You can see the three roofs of the climb: the firs...

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This long route pulls over multiple roofs on solid Clear Creek rock between Little Kitten (to the left) and the sweet arete climb Wet Dream (to the right). There can be bits of loose rock on the ledges after the roofs, be careful not to bombard your belayer. I found the first overlap to be slightly difficult to clip, although the final crux roof up high, was very well protected and more fun than words. Excellent from bottom to top, my favorite route on Wall of '90s for the moves, exposure, and length.


100 foot route (60m rope stretcher) with 15 bolts plus 2 bolt anchor. Tie a knot in the end of the rope.

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Comments displayed oldest to newestSkip Ahead to the Most Recent Dated Apr 26, 2017
Sep 25, 2001

This is great climbing. I've been climbing C. Creek for 3 years and just got on the route Sun. I am not a strong climber, I want to get that straight, and I don't think I can on sight 5.11c/d. Does the grade hold strong??? 5.11b or maybe low 5.11d are my thoughts. Clear Creek seems to be rated heavy compared to the rest of the world.
By Richard M. Wright
From: Lakewood, CO
Sep 25, 2001

I was going with 5.11c myself.
By Chris Dawson
From: Denver, CO
Nov 11, 2001

I have to go with 5.11a max. This route had one 11 move at the third "crux", but you get an awesome rest before and after it. All the ledges make for a very easy onsight. Without those, it might be harder.
By Nate Weitzel
Nov 11, 2001

I would second Chris, good route to onsight, lots of good rests, but the hard moves are straightforward. On par with Refer Madness in difficulty, although the style is vastly different.
By JDory
Jun 26, 2003

Did this route last week. 11c/d is generous. The roof starts well, a little tricky, but ends in a "positive" sense. Certainly worth the drive down! A must do Clear Creek route! I say b or b/c.
By Edward Jenner
Sep 4, 2003

Fun route. Lots of 10+ and 11- crux's with rests in between. I think the first little roof is harder than the large one.
By Andrew James Pierce
Mar 13, 2004

You know...I was shimmying my way up Curvacous and had to tweak it over the first roof, but it wasn't until the final overhang when I finally got the lead out.
By Andrew James Pierce
Mar 13, 2004

You really need to tweak it on the first roof...but it wasn't until the last overhang when I really got the led out!
By Bob Rotert
Nov 7, 2004
rating: 5.11- 6c 22 VIII+ 22 E3 5c

Boy this is a great route, but I can not believe the grade inflations on some of these sport routes these days. To rate this 11c/d is a hugh ego stroke. I believe this route would maybe be rated 10+ if done in the 80's. Good comparison route would be to go do Guenese in Eldorado. Guenese is rated 11a now, I believe Erickson rated 10+ when he freed it and that is with going thru the roof on the first pitch and not utilizing the cheater belay under the roof. This is an awesome route but some of the folks out there really need a reality check on the ratings cause they sure ain't using what I know as the YDS rating system.
By micah stocker
Nov 12, 2004

I agree with Bob this route a great route but not worth the rating. However, maybe the people who put this route up rated it 11c/d to discourage people from climbing it. There are some fragile flakes up there. So for those people who man up to this route they get an ego boost, while other climbers who could easily onsight this are driven away by the rating. It is kind of a good ideal for preserving the route. However, like Abraham Lincoln said "you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time." I think at the top there should be a little sign that tells the climber what they really just climbed. Still a three star route. A three star 10d/11a. Take it from me I onsighted this with a hang over, and vomit all over my shirt, oh-yeah don't forget a broken finger. As for CCC, it is relatively a new climbing area, people should give the place a chance. Just like Eldo in the 80's the grades were f..., so with time the grades will become more consistent. Especially with assholes like me writing their two cents!
By a concerned user of the world wide web
Nov 13, 2004
rating: 5.9+ 5c 17 VI 17 E1 5a

Why not 10b? If you can onsight this, you shouldn't have too much trouble with 11c routes at Rifle. The "contributors" who seem to think they're adding to this site by whining about the good old days or about how other states (California?) are graded so much harder might better spend their time working on harder climbs. The surest sign of an over-the-hill climber is constantly referring to Eldorado Canyon as the benchmark for rock-climbing. The second-surest is complaining about overgrading at the 5.11 level. And the third-surest is posting tthose comments on this website
By ac
Nov 13, 2004
rating: 5.11c 6c+ 24 VIII- 24 E4 6a

_ Nicely said.
By ac
Apr 24, 2005
rating: 5.11c 6c+ 24 VIII- 24 E4 6a

This route is in the 5.10 to 11a range only to internet spraylords and the hopelessly insecure. Definitely not Rifle or Eldo 11c/d, but pretty consistent with most modern sport ratings.
By Luke Evans
Sep 6, 2005

Lots o' Bird turds and Rope Drag? Go do it!
By Bob Rotert
Oct 9, 2005
rating: 5.11- 6c 22 VIII+ 22 E3 5c

Just one more comment and I will leave it at that. I would say folks who seem to get defensive about an over the hill and elderly climbers opinion and post their comments as AC or "A Concerned User" seem insecure to me. The fact is 11c/d should be 11 c/d whether in Eldo, Rifle, Clear Creek, Yosemite, Canada or done in the '70s, '80s, '90s or the Millineum. That's the purpose of a standard rating system.

The way I voiced my opinion above, may have made some feel it was directed at them personally. Apologies if so, that was not my intent. I know many climb well above the 11+ grade. I just hate to see some of these "Sport Routes" in Clear Creek and Bolter Canyon get ratings so out of whack with reality. I'll tone it down a bit. Regardless of rating, this is a super fun route, and anyone who climbs it I think will agree with that.
By Umph!
Feb 11, 2006

I'd have to agree with Rotert. That is the reasoning of standards - to create consistency. Some climbs are quite dependent upon the climbers heighth and size (say finger) - this is the only time a rating should fluctuate much beyond two letter ratings. And this coming from a relatively new climber (12 years or so on technical rock). . . . I guess that blows the "old-timers" theory into the shitter.
By Richard M. Wright
From: Lakewood, CO
Feb 14, 2006

Here is the central issue missing from the present discussion. Grading any climb is a subjective process of refinement and consensus, and the posting of new routes in a public forum before the rotes have appeared in print allows the process of refinement and consensus to unfold in a timely manner. It is important to understand that when a new route goes in, and that is when Curvaceous got its grade, the grade applied reflects only the impression at the time. It is nearly a universal truth that running a route a few times, with different climbers, improves the ascent. The initial ascent is usually, more likely always, inefficient and done wrong. Unless one is putting in new routes, it's hard to imagine how often a line seems very difficult when done on jugs, with the difficulty melting away on the FFA. Equally often, a bollixed up sequence gets logged into the brain on jugs, and when the route is run for the FFA, the bollixed up sequence is used again!!! The mind is a damnable thing. Just recall Chris Sharma on the Mandala: he almost called V16 after the FFA, only to have it shake down to V12 when consensus finally arrived. And this from someone with all kinds of experience to back up his giving the grade. The idea that some ego thrust is at stake in giving a grade is nearly humorous at the 5.11 level. We all know climbers that can hardly tell the difference between 5.9 and 5.11. Frankly, rather than assuming the worst about the climber giving a first impression, imagine that your own ascent contributes valuable experience to the assessment of the grade. Get it out there and see how the dust settles. More often than not consensus will yield the proper grade, and not the FFA. My own occasional return to the route in question has me leaning more to 11a as well. Now it is hard to imagine why we were doing it in a more difficult way than was required, but one way this happens is to do a route with poor efficiency - but still succeed. Is there any climber out there who has not refined their moves by repeating a route only to find it easier than they first imagined? So, here is a suggestion for all of the new first ascent data posted here (or anywhere for that matter). We can give the FFA grade a "T" designation (T for tentative), for example 5.11b(T), and when the grade for the route has been finally consolidated we can dispose of the tentative designation.
By chris deulen
From: Castle Rock
May 15, 2006
rating: 5.11c 6c+ 24 VIII- 24 E4 6a

Fantastic route. Fun, somewhat pumpy.
By Dana Bartlett
From: CT
May 11, 2008

This seemed closer to 5.10c/d. Who knows?
By Jeremy
From: Boulder, CO
Jun 9, 2008
rating: 5.11c/d 7a 24 VIII 25 E4 6a

Isn't grading more of a general guideline? I can usually onsight 11c, especially in CCC. However, this route beat me down. Maybe it's the length, or the overganging nature, or the pump I had. I did another 11c at the same crag right before and this felt harder.
By Sam Benedict
From: Denver, CO
Jun 22, 2009

Oh Mountain Project – sigh…how I love these little discussions. This is what climbing is all about right here: bickering endlessly about some numbers followed by letters that don’t make a shit-bit of difference. This is one of the coolest routes at the wall – excepting the stupidly misplaced bolt down low. Getting to campus the last roof alone makes the route worth doing. God bless all you MP swine.
By Darren Mabe
From: Flagstaff, AZ
Jun 22, 2009
rating: 5.11b/c 6c+ 23 VIII- 24 E4 6a

Regarding the misplaced bolt (at first roof): I am willing to move it, but how about I take a poll first if I should? Also will post on a forum....
By slim
Jun 22, 2009
rating: 5.11c 6c+ 24 VIII- 24 E4 6a

I agree about the bolt. Totally weird location. I actually thought the crux of the route was clipping it. Definitely detracts from the quality in my opinion.
By Darren Mabe
From: Flagstaff, AZ
Jun 22, 2009
rating: 5.11b/c 6c+ 23 VIII- 24 E4 6a

Moved bolt 5 June 22, 2009.
By Jeremy
From: Boulder, CO
Oct 5, 2009
rating: 5.11c/d 7a 24 VIII 25 E4 6a

Since the majority of comments on this route are about the grade, I'll chime a little more.
I noticed in the new guidebook that Reefer is an 11b and this is only supposed to be an 11b/c. These are at least 2 letter grades apart in difficulty in my opinion.
Great route! and great move on that weird bolt.
By Darren Mabe
From: Flagstaff, AZ
Oct 5, 2009
rating: 5.11b/c 6c+ 23 VIII- 24 E4 6a

Yeah, Jeremy, tough to grade those two. Both have some height dependent parts, I personally would have given Reefer 10d in my book, but shorter folks think is harder. How about we call Curvaceous an 11 and Reefer 11-?

At any rate, both are good fun and worthy of a lap almost every time I am up there.
By Monty
From: Golden, CO
Nov 7, 2009
rating: 5.11b/c 6c+ 23 VIII- 24 E4 6a

This now sports lower off clips since most people lower to clean their draws any how.
By Luke Childers
Nov 11, 2009
rating: 5.11a 6c 22 VII+ 22 E3 5c

Great line!!! With some many rests on the line I can't see the line being any harder than 11b or so... regardless it's a nice long bit of climbing that is worth doing!!! I will be doing this one many more times in the future. It could also be a great warm-up for some.
By percious
From: Bear Creek, CO
May 10, 2010
rating: 5.11b 6c 23 VIII- 23 E3 5c

Thanks to WiledHorse for replacing that bolt. I look forward to climbing this again.
By Ben L.
From: Highlands Ranch, CO
Jul 20, 2010

Way fun! You have to do this route!
By Harald Harb
From: Dumont
Aug 5, 2011

Since I live near CC, I climb here a lot and love the climbing, but after two summers traveling to Rifle, the grades and ratings are totally off the scale. Either Rifle is too sandbagged, or CC is too highly graded on most of the climbs. This isn't just a minor discrepancy, a letter or two here or there. It's almost a full number difference in grades between CC and Rifle, for many comparable climbs.

Example: to compare, "80 Feet of Meat" to Reefer Madness, isn't realistic. I agree with Darren M., Reefer is more like a 10d and 80 feet is more like a CC 5.11c or d.
Curvaceous, if in Rifle, would be a 5.10d. Any 10 climber can red point this climb after 4 or 5 attempts. You can't do that on "Cold Cuts" or "80 Feet of Meat".

If you want a reality check, try Fossil Family, a Rifle 5-12a. that is a standard that is a valid "test piece" for a 12a.
By Jay Samuelson
From: Denver CO
Aug 6, 2011
rating: 5.11 6c+ 23 VIII- 23 E4 5c

Harold, you're right. Comparing Reefer Madness and 80 Feet of Meat isn't realistic. Maybe the discrepancy you're seeing is that everything below 5.12 in Rifle is horribly polished, sandbagged ,and generally crappy, contrived lines put up by .13+ and .14 climbers (although 80 Feet of Meat is not, and is an excellent line).

You'll probably feel better when you realize Rifle is overly sandbagged at the low end and average or soft (depending on the route) once you get above mid-12. And that CC is soft on some of the routes on some of the walls. Instead of trying to bring the 1000s of crags across the country into line with Rifle, maybe we should just be honest and bring Rifle up to the standards of everywhere else. 80 Feet of Meat is easily an .11+ at any other area, it's just fun to keep calling it .11b to your friends who have never tried it. Kinda like how Helicopter is still V5....

And if you want a reality check, stop using Rifle as your standard.
By Darren Mabe
From: Flagstaff, AZ
Aug 6, 2011
rating: 5.11b/c 6c+ 23 VIII- 24 E4 6a

Rifle has its own rating scale.

Heck, I thought Crime and Punishment in Rifle is a soft 12a.
By Keith H. North
From: Englewood, CO
Aug 7, 2011

How is Rifle relevant to grades in Clear Creek Canyon? Compare this route to other routes in the canyon, besides grades are so God damn subjective anyway, is it really that important?
By Dwight Jugornot
From: Arvada, Co.
Nov 26, 2011
rating: 5.11c 6c+ 24 VIII- 24 E4 6a

Really enjoyed this route. Getting up under that roof on thin, bulgy stuff. Seems impossible until you just go for it. Very intimidating & quite heady but nicely bolted.
By Scott Thurnauer
Aug 28, 2012
rating: 5.11b/c 6c+ 23 VIII- 24 E4 6a

This route is simply a lot of fun. Our last of the day and we almost didn't go because rain was coming. It was so worth it. Was a bit heady for the leader probably, particularly the final roof, but everything is fun and bolts are in the right places, etc. Definitely uses every inch of a 60meter, so tie a not. I will climb this again for sure.
Rock Climbing Photo: Brian pulling the final roof.
Brian pulling the final roof.
By Andrew Riley
From: Yangon, Myanmar
May 9, 2013

Hey, I left a Gri-gri at the bottom of this climb on 5/8/13, checked today and it wasn't there. If you picked it up/found it, let me know and I'll buy you a six pack. - Andrew Riley 217-779-7779.
By Train4life
From: Boulder, CO
Jan 7, 2014
rating: 5.10d 6b+ 21 VII+ 21 E3 5b

Excellent route! Super super soft! 10d, maybe 11a! When you can rest at every stance and have basically one real pull off a huge jug, it's hard for me to give it harder than 11a! That being said, great route!
By Jack Sparrow
From: denver, co
Apr 26, 2017
rating: 5.11c/d 7a 24 VIII 25 E4 6a

I think this route is 5.8, probably soft for the grade. Wahoooooooooooooo.

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