Confessions of a zinc-plated bolter
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Just this past month, I placed easily a dozen new bolts, all 3/8" sleeve bolts, typically 3 1/2" long. I confess, though, like I've been doing since I drilled my first bolt in '76, I used non-stainless or zinc-plated bolts and hangers. |
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John Steiger wrote: I suppose I will at least shift to stainless for new routes on popular crags or crags that I suspect will become popular. But I think, just maybe, that I'll continue to use zinc-plated on the choss-fests...I'll bite... I think that sounds reasonable. If its a one or two and done and, you dont expect others to climb there then why bother bolting? What's wrong with just TR'ing? Doesnt feed the ego/adrenaline rush addiction? From a LNT perspective you're just drilling the rock and leaving metal in these cliff to rot away (ie not get used) once you're gone. Not very stuart-like, more like an american consumer, just use and throw away..who cares whats after me? Have you considered stopping bolting the choss and then save that $50 to buy some SS for the good stuff? Why not walk away without defacing the rock or leaving metal behind to rot away on the cliff? Your children can have the same fun you had discovering all the climbs. Otherwise it'll just be them discovering how all the cliffs that were drilled and plugged with cheap metal to rust out. John Steiger wrote: at least until the industry stops selling non-stainless hangers.This is kinda the ironic part, they wont stop selling them until people like you stop buying them, and you wont stop buying them until they stop selling them. So there's that problem. P.S. I have and do bolt in my area but have switched over to almost exclusively SS. $3.50 a bolt/hanger for 3/8" 5 piece ain't that expensive. |
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Ultimately the only person you are responsible for is you. |
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Mike Lane wrote:Ultimately the only person you are responsible for is you. No one ever signed any Social Contract. Everyone who follows after you makes a decision to proceed or not. Rusty bolts be part of that equation. They don't like it, they can change them out. That way generations stay connected to the areas.+1 @John: Thanks for putting bolts up in the first place, regardless of the material type. I've clipped manky ring pitons, and was super happy they were there to be clipped in the first place. Lastly, you've taken time and money out of your own pocket to put up a route (thank you). Unless the people dictating SS material are reimbursing you for the difference in cost, this is all a non issue. |
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Keep in mind that it's easier to screw up a stainless bolt by over-torquing. You really want a torque wrench that measures in inch-lbs to get an accurate 12 ft-lbs of torque on a 3/8" stainless bolt. |
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See the photo below. One reason to use stainless is route maintenance. I tried to unscrew these 18 year old Rawl 5-piece bolts to replace the cold shut hangers with Real(TM) hangers, but the bolt and cone on each was rusted in place and they snapped. |
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NON STAINLESS BOLTS? YOU ARE AN EVIL EVIL PERSON!!!!!!1111111 |
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It's not really a matter of any contention. If you're going to bolt, use SS and that's even more important on obscure routes that will see long spans of time between ascents. |
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Morgan Patterson wrote: $3.50 a bolt/hanger for 3/8" 5 piece ain't that expensive.Source for that deal? |
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Uhh, suggest using a wedge anchor as well and not a "sleeve anchor". Stronger. |
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Of course, Bill had to beat me to it by two minutes. I'd listen to BillCoe - he owns a hi-tech fastener company - he knows bolts. |
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you know what John ? Fuck'm..I have done a few f'a's and other than the bolts being in the right place and well done, I cold give a fuck aboutfuture ascents..I did it..if you want to repeat..go for it |
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Billcoe wrote:Uhh, suggest using a wedge anchor as well and not a "sleeve anchor". Stronger. And one more point re: Tapas post above. Most commercial stainless steel wedge anchors recommend 25 ft lbs torque to install. Powers wedge anchors are 25-30. Which suggests that one really needs to check what the hell they are installing and do it per Mfg specs to see if they suggest 12 ft lbs or 25 ft lbs. Or at least with a hand calibrated Crescent Wrench:-) http://www.powers.com/pdfs/mechanical/7400.pdf http://www.itwredhead.com/pdfs/submittals/trubolt.pdfWedge anchors are only good in hard rock. I love them and use them in granite and quartzite, but they are totally inappropriate for desert sandstone and other soft rock that Utah has in abundance. I've pulled a number of 3/8" wedges out with my fingers in soft rock. I don't consider the Wasatch arid - lots of those bolts spend a lot of time under snow or with snow melt running over them. I personally would never place anything but stainless in the Wasatch. I will place the last of my plated bolts out in the desert that is arid and where even a plated bolt will likely outlast the hole, but I won't buy any more plated hardware even for the desert. I've sometimes found boxes of 50 stainless powers bolts for around $3 per bolt, and I buy a few boxes whenever I see that deal. Just have to search regularly and keep your eyes open. |
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I've said this elsewhere but go-it-alone bolting will be history soon enough. Bad anchors cost money and time to replace and have no business being installed on public land. If climbers don't care about the quality of hardware being installed then they probably shouldn't be putting up new routes. |
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John, thanks for your recent contributions here in the Wasatch. I've enjoyed what I've had the chance to sample. |
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In Thailand there are routes with titanium bolts at cruxes and for the anchors. You could compromise by using stainless for those and making a point of indicating all of this on mp and where ever else the routes are published. |
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Daniel H. Bryant wrote: +1 @John: Thanks for putting bolts up in the first place, regardless of the material type. I've clipped manky ring pitons, and was super happy they were there to be clipped in the first place. Lastly, you've taken time and money out of your own pocket to put up a route (thank you). Unless the people dictating SS material are reimbursing you for the difference in cost, this is all a non issue.Keep in mind those of us that stand by only using SS, well, we also only use stainless steel. We pony up the extra money for our better quality routes, for you, the climber. If anyone should be paying the difference for the extra safety and lifetime of the bolt, its you, the climber, not the guy that is already using the quality materials. In response to the OP. In the end its your choice. Use quality stuff, or place plated bolts expecting other people to eventually to come in and fix the legacy you've decided to leave (ie. rusty bolts). The solution you mentioned of using cheap stuff on routes you don't expect many others to ever climb, well, that's fairly reasonable. But certainly use SS on routes you expect others to climb. |
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John Steiger wrote:On the other hand, maybe my confession will cleanse me and I'll see the light . . .I hope that the next few things I say will help in that regard. John Steiger wrote: But I'm still not so sure for the kind of bolting I do nowadays, which typically is on obscure crags in obscure climbing areas with subpar rock that are unlikely to see more than a handful ascents in a decade. Does it really make sense to spend about a hundred dollars for a six-bolt chain-anchored route that takes 15 minutes to bushwhack to and is 50 feet long over chossy rock, when I can do it for $50? Particularly when long ago I resigned to use only sleeve bolts because I know they are easy to replace or to remove and patch, assuming someone will care enough about the route to do so?If you give that it's due consideration, you might come to the conclusion that rarely used routes are at least as necessary to use good bolts on as popular ones. On popular routes, the time and occasion will come often that a bolt is viewed, inspected, and maybe even tested. And that someone of some training/knowledge might encounter it, that word might spread, or even perhaps that a single bolt that is frequently loaded might fail and call attention to the potential for disaster. But a rarely climbed route might just lurk for 30 years and the first time someone falls from up high, none of the bolts between them and the ground might be sufficient to do their job, which is to arrest a fall. And that leads to both injury and public access issues. John Steiger wrote: Does it really make sense to spend about a hundred dollars for a six-bolt chain-anchored route that takes 15 minutes to bushwhack to and is 50 feet long over chossy rock, when I can do it for $50?Well, the wise guy in me jumps immediately to the question of: "If it isn't worth doing right, then... is it worth doing at all?" There is always the TR, and that's much cheaper still. John Steiger wrote: On the other hand, maybe my confession will cleanse me and I'll see the light . . . When I crack open that box of new, brightly shimmering stainless bolts purchased at industry's cost.You know, at least here there are programs for that, whereas the Bolt companies (IE Climbtech) is offering the BCC SS bolts at cost, and we are permitted to purchase for developers who agree to use only SS. Check with your local Access Fund affiliate and see if they can arrange such a thing. |
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Mike Lane wrote:Ultimately the only person you are responsible for is you. No one ever signed any Social Contract. Everyone who follows after you makes a decision to proceed or not. Rusty bolts be part of that equation.I'm responsible for me. And I make a decision if, or not, I proceed nightly onto roads. And there may be drink drivers. Is it my fault if I get hit? No. But it would be nice if people didn't do that, wouldn't it? I'm not a nanny-stater, but I tell you what... in 30 years, will an educated climber know what each of what kind of markings is or is not SS bolt when that HAS become the standard? |
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evan h wrote: Source for that deal?FIXE sale, off sized bolts... |