China Doll ethics
|
I just checked out the new issues of R&I and Climbing and read about the recent FFA of the extended version of China Doll by Mike Patz at 5.14a R. Pretty sick. What struck me about these mag pieces is the seeming advocacy by the author for the chopping of the pitch 1 bolts and removal of the intermediate anchor. (For more background on China Doll, see the mags or the appropriate websites for R&I and Climbing) |
|
This is obviously a subjective topic, although the fact remains that the FA was done on the bolts. It's not as though no one knew about the area, so there was plenty of opportunity for someone to have done the FA on gear. They didn't, and Bob Horan probably seized the opportunity to create the route in a style consummate with his climbing ability at the time. |
|
Well said Ken. |
|
You can see Bob Horan's comments on the topic here: |
|
Could not have said it any better Ken. The bolts should stay. |
|
Ken Cangi wrote: If you chop the bolts, then you basically dismiss the efforts of those who free climbed the route on bolts.Not only that, but wouldn't you be dismissing your own efforts if you chopped. Lets for arguments sake say that Brian eventually sends and then chops all bolts and the middle anchor. He would never have the chance of doing the route in the "better" style that everyone else must now pursue. He would, in essence, be saying that the manner in which he sent the route was in poor style. |
|
I agree with the consensus so far. You can't have it both ways...if the FA is the authority on adding bolts (not that I totally agree with that), they are the authority on chopping bolts. |
|
Interestingly enough Bob Horan originally attempted the route with pro and found the line too committing to continue. He went back later and added the bolts, first the rap anchor then the lead bolts. That was an accepted style in the 80's in Boulder Canyon. It does not change the fact that this is arguably the most beautiful natural line in Boulder Canyon, marred by unnecessary bolts. |
|
In the case of China Doll, the bolts are already there. That means this is not a debate on environmental ethics as much as a debate on style, as the holes are already there. To me, then, it would seem like a very elitist thing to do to chop the bolts. If someone wants to do the climb in better style, they can skip the bolts. |
|
i think that calling china doll a route that can be protected entirely on gear is getting into the grey area a bit. you could potentially say that about ANY route, when it comes down to it. horan has put up hard routes, scary routes, and hard scary routes. it seems that he did what he did using his best judgement, and taking into consideration the appropriate ethics of the time. also, there may have been some advances in gear since then that could have made a difference. |
|
I think that Mr. Patz should provide a new name for his version of the route. Then the bolted line China Doll remains, but also coexists with "natural line X". |
|
CHINA DOLL: A BRIEF HISTORY OF A REMARKABLE CRACK |
|
Big words there Jason. I am not criticizing, just stating the facts. I don't think you know me, but maybe you should do your homework before opening your trap. Also name calling on the internet is so childish, if you have a problem with what I am saying why not look me up and say it to my face? |
|
Kevin Stricker wrote:Big words there Jason. I am not criticizing, just stating the facts. I don't think you know me, but maybe you should do your homework before opening your trap. Also name calling on the internet is so childish, if you have a problem with what I am saying why not look me up and say it to my face?Responding to Jason's comment with a threat is just as childish, and it has nothing to do with the topic. Kevin Stricker wrote:I think that Bob Horan was a visionary, and some of his routes from the 80's are still projects to me. I am sure that given the advances in protection in the last 20 years the climb is now much safer. That does not change the fact that bolting cracks is considered bad style, and always has been in the US.Bolting cracks is considered bad style, but China Doll is not a crack. I have been on the route, and it is a flaring, discontinuous, double dihedral seam, separated by thin face sections. Please argue your case based on the facts. I think it's pretty safe to say that "no one" would seriously consider bolting a route like Sphinx Crack, because it is indeed a crack climb. Kevin Stricker wrote:In 20 years when those bolts on China Doll need to be replaced will they just be left as relics on the rock for our children to laugh at as they climb past placing natural pro? Do we leave unnecessary hardware in the rock as museum pieces or do we attempt to keep our stone in as natural of a state as possible to protect the resource for future generations.Unless you are clairvoyant, you have no way of knowing what people will be thinking twenty years from now, so your statement is, at best, conjecture. The bolts may or may not be necessary for someone in the future, although they were for everyone, including Patz, who has been on the route so far. Twenty years ago a very small percentage of climbers were able to climb 5.13. That is still true today - especially if you include leading at that grade on gear. I am pretty confident that 5.14 trad climbing will still be the realm of an elite few, decades from now. Your ethic/premise does not represent the majority of climbers. You are entitled to it, although you might consider that it is hypocritical if you aren't willing to forgo the use of bolts yourself. By your standard, all rock should be kept in its natural state if there is a possibility that someone might be able to free it sans bolts. Alex Huber free-soloed 8b+. Does that mean that the bolts on that route should be chopped so that 99% of the climbers climbing at that grade will have no access to it? You said that Bob Horan did routes that you still aspire to. By that, I will assume that you are far from possessing the ability to free climb China Doll , let alone do it ground up on gear. Consequently, I believe that you are arguing out of your league. Your idea that China Doll is a crack climb is proof enough that you don't possess - or at least aren't presenting - the requisite facts to support your argument. Your desire to preserve the rock is admirable, although it needs to be tempered by reason if you want it to have any real value. |
|
Didn't Kyle Copeland aid the first ascent of China Doll? |
|
So Ken, please tell me how you are more entitled to your opinion than I am? Because I choose to focus on alpine routes and big walls vs crag in Boulder Canyon? I have seen China Doll, but you are right I have not climbed it. Saying it is not a crack is laughable, if it was a face climb how was it aided on the FA without bolts? |
|
Kevin Stricker wrote:So Ken, please tell me how you are more entitled to your opinion than I am?I can't tell you that because it isn't true, nor did I ever suggest that it was. I said this: Ken Cangi wrote:Your desire to preserve the rock is admirable, although it needs to be tempered by reason if you want it to have any real value.and: Ken Cangi wrote:You said that Bob Horan did routes that you still aspire to. By that, I will assume that you are far from possessing the ability to free climb China Doll , let alone do it ground up on gear. Consequently, I believe that you are arguing out of your league.Tell me where in those sentences I in any way suggested that I am more entitled to an opinion than you. Kevin Stricker wrote: Funny how some people are so attached to their version of the truth that they are unwilling to even listen to another's point of view.Good point. You might listen a little more carefully to what I actually said to you, because it sounds like you heard your own version of it. Kevin Stricker wrote:Also what I said to Jason was not a threat, just a comment that if he wants to call me names then let's have a beer and talk about it in person.Actually, what you said was: Kevin Stricker wrote:Big words there Jason. I am not criticizing, just stating the facts. I don't think you know me, but maybe you should do your homework before opening your trap. Also name calling on the internet is so childish, if you have a problem with what I am saying why not look me up and say it to my face?Yep. That would inspire me to meet you for beers - with a football helmet. Kevin Stricker wrote: Saying it is not a crack is laughable, if it was a face climb how was it aided on the FA without bolts?Why do you keep putting words in my mouth? I never said that it was a face climb. I said this: Ken Cangi wrote:it is a flaring, discontinuous, double dihedral seam, separated by thin face sections. Kevin Stricker wrote:As for China Doll, to be honest I am not very attached to it's outcome. My opinion is more based on a traditional perspective, that naturally protected features should not be bolted.Again, it's admirable that you want to preserve all potentially natural lines, but, so far, all you have offered is a simplistic solution to a complex situation. There are too many variables involved - personal taste, cultural evolution, changing trends, practicality, etc.. I can appreciate your traditional roots. I came up in this sport in a very traditional area of New England. I was doing hard, scary routes ground up and on gear decades ago. I still fight to preserve the routes that were done in that style. Read some of my posts in the Salt Lake forums. That is my personal taste, although I try not to be too rigid. I admit that it is hard sometimes, but it is necessary not to get too attached to one way of thinking. That is what I meant by tempering your arguments with reason. It was not a slight toward you. Anyway, I think Patz deserves big kudos for his effort. I also hope that the bolts are there when I'm back in shape, because I'll be psyched to redpoint the first pitch on the bolts, or at least give it my best shot. Climbing is all about the personal experience, after all. KC |
|
Ken Cangi wrote: Bolting cracks is considered bad style, but China Doll is not a crack.Hmm...Maybe we have a different definition of a crack, but any seam that takes natural gear would be a crack to me. Ken Cangi wrote: By that, I will assume that you are far from possessing the ability to free climb China Doll , let alone do it ground up on gear. Consequently, I believe that you are arguing out of your league. Your idea that China Doll is a crack climb is proof enough that you don't possess - or at least aren't presenting - the requisite facts to support your argument.Sure sounds like you are questioning my opinion to me. Ken, it seems to me that maybe your viewpoint on this topic is biased by your desire to climb China Doll with bolts. Otherwise how can you say you support traditional ethics then go on to say you support the rap bolting of a previously led trad climb? Seems like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. I am guessing the only chance you have of climbing this route is in it's current state, hence your defense for the bolts being left in. |
|
Kevin Stricker wrote:Sure sounds like you are questioning my opinion to me.Questioning your opinion and saying that I am more entitled to one than you are two entirely different animals. Kevin Stricker wrote:Ken, it seems to me that maybe your viewpoint on this topic is biased by your desire to climb China Doll with bolts. Otherwise how can you say you support traditional ethics then go on to say you support the rap bolting of a previously led trad climb? Seems like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. I am guessing the only chance you have of climbing this route is in it's current state, hence your defense for the bolts being left in.I was waiting for you to go there. I climbed full-time in this town for seven years, before I moved, and I'm pretty sure that I was strong enough to do that pitch. It wasn't that important to me at the time, nor is it now. My plate is full at the moment, and doing one pitch of China Doll is somewhere at the bottom of my list of priorities. I can also name at least ten routes on my hit list that will get attention before I even start thinking about that pitch. I already made it clear why I think the bolts should stay, and I assure you that my reasons have nothing to do with personal motivation. |
|
Strclmbr...you have REALLY gone WAY out of your way to put a lot of words in my mouth, I think I know who you are...have I done something to offend you? Before you go calling me "hypocritical, holier-than-thou and accuse me of having lack of perspective" I humbly encourage you to get your facts straight and ask you where all these offensive words towards me are coming from? |