Bowline as part of anchor

I took an anchor building class the other day from a guy I trust, and it was great. One of the setups we went over was building a top-rope anchor off two trees. The setup was:

Tree 1:
Bowline on a bight (tied off with an overhand or double fishserman's) around the tree, so you have a safety strand you can tie into while creating the master point.

Create master point:
BHK/BFK

Tree 2:
Wrap 3/pull 2 webbing around tree.
Overhand/Fig 8 on a bight at end of rope to close system on locker attached to webbing.
Clove hitch on a bight attached to another locker on webbing so you can take slack in line to equalize anchor.
Finish with overhand or double fisherman's to backup clove hitch and tiddy all the excess line.

My question:
I see posts on this forum from people saying, "never use a bowline. Yer gonna die" Can anybody elaborate on this? Why? How? etc... Would a fig 8 on a bight work instead?

FourT6and2 wrote:I see posts on this forum from people saying, "never use a bowline. Yer gonna die" Can anybody elaborate on this? Why? How? etc... Would a fig 8 on a bight work instead?

Probably referring to using a bowline for tie-in instead of for anchoring. What you described above is pretty standard. I think there is an cartoon illustration of that exact setup in either the Long or the Leuben book on anchors.

Edit:

Looked it up on Google books, it is the Leuben book ( Slingshot toprope )

This method is similar and seemed reasonable to me... I would be interested to hear if others disagree:

youtube.com/watch?v=DF1gmzk…

Basically it is bowline around one tree with backup double overhand, down to 2 figure-eight-on-a-bight for master point (could be BHK instead), attach and toss rope, then back up to second tree with friction wrap and backup double overhand. Seems very simple, and easy to equalize. You could put a prusik on the first strand going down to the cliff edge for safety I would think during setup

Ok, thanks guys. That clears that up.

yer gunna die!

I have a built in distrust (perhaps irrational) of bowlines myself so for top rope anchors I always tie in to the tree with a rewoven figure eight - just like my knot to my harness.

I use a static rope for my anchor- one end ties to the first tree with a rewoven figure eight. Run it to the edge and tie a figure eight on a bight just over the edge.
The other end of the static rope gets tied into the other tree, also with a rewoven figure eight. Run it to the edge and tie another figure eight on a bight just over the edge.
Two locking opposed biners in the bights are for the climbing rope and I'm good to go.

Note that with this method the middle part of the static rope will not be in use but this method uses two completely independent anchors tied using knots I trust.

This way is also easy to equalize. You just stretch tight against the tree before you tie the figure eight on a bight.

I would add that you should examine the trees and make sure their bark will not be damaged by the rope. In that case webbing or some sort of padding inside the rope would be a good idea.

Rick Blair wrote: Probably referring to using a bowline for tie-in instead of for anchoring. What you described above is pretty standard. I think there is an cartoon illustration of that exact setup in either the Long or the Leuben book on anchors. Edit: Looked it up on Google books, it is the Leuben book ( Slingshot toprope )

a bowline is just fine for tying into your harness as long as it's tied correctly, dressed and backed-up.

its these 3 things being done improperly (either independently or together) that lead people to believe it is an unsafe knot. like most climbing knots, it has its purpose and application.

I took an REI-sponsored class from an old trad climber out in Great Falls, MD who taught an even simpler system, but similar to yours:

Tie a "speed-bowline" on a bight with a safety knot to tree #1. Work back to the edge of the cliff and drop enough line over the edge to tie your BHK, then run back to tree #2 and tie another speed bowline on a bight with a safety knot. Return to the edge, clip into your prussik on your safety tether (optional) and equalize the lines and adjust for direction of pull, tying your BHK and clipping in your lockers. Ready to load the climbing rope.

This is the only time I use a bowline but that's how I was taught so I stick with it and it's super fast. It also uses a minimum of gear. The whole thing can be done with a single length of static cord and two lockers - all you need. I'd recommend taking the "basic top rope anchors" class if you have an REI near you - that's where I was shown this.

Matthew Williams 1 wrote:I took an REI-sponsored class from an old trad climber out in Great Falls, MD who taught an even simpler system, but similar to yours: Tie a "speed-bowline" on a bight with a safety knot to tree #1. Work back to the edge of the cliff and drop enough line over the edge to tie your BHK, then run back to tree #2 and tie another speed bowline on a bight with a safety knot. Return to the edge, clip into your prussik on your safety tether (optional) and equalize the lines and adjust for direction of pull, tying your BHK and clipping in your lockers. Ready to load the climbing rope. This is the only time I use a bowline but that's how I was taught so I stick with it and it's super fast. It also uses a minimum of gear. The whole thing can be done with a single length of static cord and two lockers - all you need. I'd recommend taking the "basic top rope anchors" class if you have an REI near you - that's where I was shown this.

The thing I like about the method in the video I posted is how easy it is to equalize using the friction wrap on the second tree having already weighted the master point with the rope. It also only requires one trip to the cliff edge.

I use a similar method to the one in the video. A bowline to one tree, BHK in the middle, throw rope over, equalize with another bowline to another tree. I find this really easy to set up and equalize. Also a bowline is plenty safe as long as you tie it right. I think the reason people distrust bowlines is that they are easier to tie improperly compared to a figure-eight follow through, as well as slightly trickier to assess. I don't necessarily agree with this but I've also tied more bowlines in my life than I know what to do with (never into my harness though).

I like the idea of using a friction hitch like the clove on one side because it's easy to adjust slack in the line for equalization.

I asked my instructor why not just use a figure 8 instead of a bowline. And the logic behind it is that it's easier to untie after weighting it.

But... I have a figure 8 on my harness/climbing rope. And it's not that hard to untie even after I've taken a few falls. So I don't see how using one at an anchor point would be any harder to untie. And the figure 8 is definitely easier to tie and assess. So.... meh. Either way I guess.

And I can still tie a figure 8 on a bight on one side of the anchor to get a strand of rope down to where the master point will be. And use that as my safety tether. Then throw a clove hitch to a locker on my belay loop to secure myself while building the anchor.

Seems all like a moot discussion to me at this point. :)

Plenty of people (myself included) have tied boats that weigh thousands of pounds to a buoy with a single bowline. It's strong enough, especially for a top-rope anchor. Just make sure it's tied right (should look like a life jacket).

As others have said, you got a pretty standard education there. Yer gonna die, but not from that set-up failing.

Now, to take it a step further - Testing has shown clearly that clove hitches DO NOT SLIP. They creep at most a couple rope diameters as they tighten, as do most knots. (They then hold until the biner breaks) So if you had a few feet of tail on your clove hitch, it's not life-or-death necessary to "close the system"; that's just the guy being habitual. Or possibly uninformed re. the knots he uses. Look at it this way - if it WERE to start slipping, how far could it go before the load falls on the other leg of the anchor?

Also - wrap 3, pull 2 is super strong (rescue riggers use it, 20 kN minimum). Don't blow a fuse if all you can do is basket a long sling around that tree.

Gunkiemike wrote:As others have said, you got a pretty standard education there. Yer gonna die, but not from that set-up failing. Now, to take it a step further - Testing has shown clearly that clove hitches DO NOT SLIP. They creep at most a couple rope diameters as they tighten, as do most knots. (They then hold until the biner breaks) So if you had a few feet of tail on your clove hitch, it's not life-or-death necessary to "close the system"; that's just the guy being habitual. Or possibly uninformed re. the knots he uses. Look at it this way - if it WERE to start slipping, how far could it go before the load falls on the other leg of the anchor? Also - wrap 3, pull 2 is super strong (rescue riggers use it, 20 kN minimum). Don't blow a fuse if all you can do is basket a long sling around that tree.

If you don't want to tie a backup knot, more power to you. That's your choice. Ultimately we are all responsible for our OWN safety. So I will always tie a backup. Because it doesn't hurt anything to do so, while NOT tying a backup knot MIGHT lead to something bad happening. Even if the chances of that happening are 0.009%, I'd rather err on the side of caution. And I'd rather climb with other people who do the same.

The guy in the video uses a static rope to set up the anchor and to climb. How smart is using a static rope for climbing? Even if it is on top rope.

Probably not the best idea in the world to use a static rope, but not the end of the world as long as your belayer is paying attention and you never have too much slack.

FourT6and2 wrote: If you don't want to tie a backup knot, more power to you. That's your choice. Ultimately we are all responsible for our OWN safety. So I will always tie a backup. Because it doesn't hurt anything to do so, while NOT tying a backup knot MIGHT lead to something bad happening. Even if the chances of that happening are 0.009%, I'd rather err on the side of caution. And I'd rather climb with other people who do the same.

Fair enough. I like to climb with people who understand the WHY of what they do and can evaluate each situation accordingly. Instead of simply overdoing everything because it's always safer to overdo everything. Certainly no one ever died by top-roping off a 7 piece anchor and double lockers on every piece, but is that a smart approach to climbing? And IMO in this sport we play it really pays to be smart. That's all I'm saying. I have tried without success to explain to intelligent people that 30 feet of static rope is not going to creep through their clove hitch. When they can't realize that, it scares me a little.

Alas, this is the Beginners forum, so I'll be quiet now. Close the system folks. Twice. Locking biners everywhere.

Gunkiemike wrote: I like to climb with people who understand the WHY of what they do and can evaluate each situation accordingly.

Exactly right, and why learning from someone who understands is important. FourT6and2, don't expect to learn everything through this forum, and good for you for finding someone. Also, when someone says never use a bowline... well, I'm sure you can figure out the response to that.

Gunkiemike wrote: Locking biners everywhere.

Good humor here ^

Gunkiemike wrote: Fair enough. I like to climb with people who understand the WHY of what they do and can evaluate each situation accordingly. Instead of simply overdoing everything because it's always safer to overdo everything. Certainly no one ever died by top-roping off a 7 piece anchor and double lockers on every piece, but is that a smart approach to climbing? And IMO in this sport we play it really pays to be smart. That's all I'm saying. I have tried without success to explain to intelligent people that 30 feet of static rope is not going to creep through their clove hitch. When they can't realize that, it scares me a little. Alas, this is the Beginners forum, so I'll be quiet now. Close the system folks. Twice. Locking biners everywhere.

It definitely pays to be smart. That much we can agree on. I look both ways before I walk across a one-way street too. That must infuriate you hahaha ;)

BigFeet wrote: Also, when someone says never use a bowline... well, I'm sure you can figure out the response to that.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes? (which is itself an absolute I guess, but I digress)

In all seriousness though, I would probably use a figure 8 in my anchors, since its the knot I'm more familiar with. But I don't necessarily think that means the bowline isn't also safe in some situations.