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Belay Anchor

Original Post
Jeff G · · Colorado · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,098

I was climbing the other day and passed a party on a ledge. This is the belay the leader had set up. One piece was an old fixed pin that looked pretty good, the other piece was a good #1 camelot.
I didn't say anything but if I climbed up to my leader who was clipped in to an anchor like this I would be a little pissed and would second guess climbing with that person again.
Not really trying to be harsh to the people involved I was just surprised by the inadequacy of the anchor and wondering if people are routinely doing this. The two pieces seemed pretty good but I don't understand the single sliding X sling and one non locking biner as the power point.
The climbers involved were super cool guys and I'm not commenting on them at all, just wanting to open this up for conversation as an anchor debate, not a personal attack of any sort. And I'm curious if other people would have tried to offer constructive criticism at the time or kept their mouths shut like I did.

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Ksween · · Wakefield, RI · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 30

Jeff, How was the leader belaying his second with that system? Also I use this configuration often when belaying off of 2 bolts. Its pretty quick to set up and only uses 1 draw. I would generally use a locker for the power point, but I would trust a clove hitch not to roll out of a no n locker. Was it quality of the pieces that bothered you?

matt davies · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 25

If the party seemed shaky and noobish, a kind word about why you think their system isn't so great might be in order, but if they seem confident and cool, that's just how they roll. There is perceived risk and actual risk, and they just might be more dialed in assessing actual risk.

Kevin O'Connor · · Richmond, VA · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 200

According to what I have been taught here is my opinion on that setup.

A) Always use a locking carabiner at the master point or 3 non lockers, opposed gates. Use 2 lockers, opposed gates, for a top rope setup.

B) Limit the extension on that sliding x by using an overhand knot to limit the extension on each side of the knot. If that pin or cam would blow, there's a good chance the other piece is going as well with the shock force that would be put on that last piece.

sliding x

C) If there is a chance for a 3rd piece of pro, take the extra time to utilize it.

Robert Cort · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 800

a) I would prefer to see another piece, especially if the pin is of unknown age/condition.

b) If either piece in this setup fails, using the sliding X results in a shock load to the other piece. Better to use an overhand knot or equalette.

c) Agree that the 'biner at the masterpoint should either be a locker or two opposite and opposed non-lockers.

Just my 2 cents

DannyUncanny · · Vancouver · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 100

There are people that climb (and do other things) by rules of "always do this", and there are people that assess every situation as it comes along. I think experience generally pushes most people towards the latter group.

Kevin Craig · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 325
Robert Cort wrote:b) If either piece in this setup fails, using the sliding X results in a shock load to the other piece. Better to use an overhand knot or equalette.
The old shock-loading fear is BS. Read Long's new book. Testing/data do not support shock loading concerns as long as the climbing rope is part of the loaded system.
Jeff G · · Colorado · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,098
Kevin Craig wrote: The old shock-loading fear is BS. Read Long's new book. Testing/data do not support shock loading concerns as long as the climbing rope is part of the loaded system.
This is what I was hoping for. I have always assumed you would get a big shock load if a piece fails in a sliding X arrangement. I have climbed with AMGA guides who get upset with me if I ever incorporate a sliding X in my anchor, so I usually only do it if I feel like the pieces are really bomber.
Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347
Kevin Craig wrote: The old shock-loading fear is BS. Read Long's new book. Testing/data do not support shock loading concerns as long as the climbing rope is part of the loaded system.
Jeff G. wrote: This is what I was hoping for. I have always assumed you would get a big shock load if a piece fails in a sliding X arrangement. I have climbed with AMGA guides who get upset with me if I ever incorporate a sliding X in my anchor, so I usually only do it if I feel like the pieces are really bomber.
But it WOULD be a problem if it was a static piece of webbing. Long only suggests that shock-loading is a myth when you are using the climbing rope as the way to connect your pieces.

Not to say that I dont like the sliding X because I think it's great to have the system move with you when you shift around at a hanging belay.
Kevin O'Connor · · Richmond, VA · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 200
Kevin Craig wrote: The old shock-loading fear is BS. Read Long's new book. Testing/data do not support shock loading concerns as long as the climbing rope is part of the loaded system.
Climber A is hanging 1000ft. off the ground without the limiting knot in his system. A piece blows in his system.
Climber B is hanging 1000ft. off the ground with a limiting knot, his piece blows.
Climber A drops 2 feet, and probably pees himself.
Climber B drops 2 inches and has a sigh of relief.

Who would you rather be in this situation? I don't care if Stephen Hawking told me I did not need a limiting knot in my sliding X. I'd still do it.
MegaGaper2000 James · · Indianola, Wa · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 20
Spri wrote: Long only suggests that shock-loading is a myth when you are using the climbing rope as the way to connect your pieces.
Not true. Shock loading is also prevented if both climbers are connected to a static anchor bythe climbing rope. The rope may be included anywhere in the system between the climbers and the pieces/bolts - not just as the anchor itself.

As to the OP, which the thread is (of course) drifting from...

The main sketchness is the munter on the non-locker. Munters flop all over the place, and can open the gate of a nonlocker pretty easily. The thirty seconds after I climbed up to that would be the last thirty seconds that partner ever held my precious life in his grubby fucking meathooks.

That aside, the sliding X is not too big a deal in my book: it increases potential extension, but only the climber is on it, and he's attached by the rope. Shock-loading would not be an issue unless the climber got to the station and the belayer took in all the slack.

The two-piece anchor seems a little shady, but it doesn't seem like the deathtrap some of the people on here seem to think it is. I've never met an anchor that had too many pieces of pro for my taste.

I probably would have said, "Wow, a munter on a non-locker?" If the belayer seemed interested in a discussion, it could then happen. If he didn't, it wouldn't.
Robert Cort · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 800
MegaGaper2000 wrote: The main sketchness is the munter on the non-locker. Munters flop all over the place, and can open the gate of a nonlocker pretty easily.
We're all guessing a little here because we can't see the actual anchor, just a reconstruction thereof...

But, there is NO Munter in the picture. It's a clove, so presumably the leader is tied into the anchor with the clove on the non-locker. Also not shown is the belay device, as shown, one could presume it's on the leader's belay loop. Given those assumptions, what happens if the follower falls and one piece fails? It's possible that the belayer will be pulled off his stance, and both leader and follower will load the remaining piece with the extension of the sliding X.
MegaGaper2000 James · · Indianola, Wa · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 20
Robert Cort wrote:there is NO Munter in the picture. It's a clove, so presumably the leader is tied into the anchor with the clove on the non-locker.
I am an idiot.

Most of what I said, though, still stands. No-knot sliding-X? Not too big a deal, given that the rope is in the system. Only two pieces in the system? Slightly bigger deal, especially given the aforementioned sliding x. Use of a single non-locker as primary attachment for whole team? Deal-breaker. Less of a big deal since its a relatively static clove instead of a floppy ol' munter, but still a deal-breaker, if I climbed up on it.

That said, a redirect through either of the pieces would count in my book as a second point of connection for the party, and would reduce my worry at least a little bit. Still, though....
Mark Mueller · · Surprise, AZ · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 185

It really isn't that hard to use lockers and limiting knots. I would have said something about that belay anchor. I tend to only use a sliding x when there is a bolted (2 good bolts) belay station.

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

I thought the 16 point cam-nest with Bass-Tracker boat anchor was always considered the standard.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
Dana wrote:Unlikely to happen, but if the sling breaks there is no anchor: that seems to be the biggest problem.
agreed, but with the same gear I probably would have clove hitched into both bolts and brought the second up through the master point
Chris Plesko · · Westminster, CO · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 485

2 good pieces and a sliding X on a monitored anchor (i'm assuming multipitch based on your description) while bringing up the 2nd? I'm not too concerned about that myself. I typically use a locker at the power point for my autoblock but never more than one if I'm standing right there watching it. I'm cloved into the powerpoint with a separate personal locker.

Parker Kempf · · Bellingham, WA · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 210

ill re-state the important thing said earlier....there is only 1 sling, if it fails it all fails

generally speaking if its not redundant, im not gonna do it...

i'd definitely say something to my partner if they belayed me on this

i use a SWAMP knot instead (shelf without a master point, do an overhand in the middle of the sling and clip the 2 loops to the bolts and clip the 2 separate loops created by the knot with your 'biners), you can still use 1 shoulder length sling but be redundant and not need 2 limiting knots or a sliding X

also i never clove in with a non-locker, shit can easily happen

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

You really need to ask yourself, What Would Donini Do?

Kevin Craig · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 325
Dana wrote:Unlikely to happen, but if the sling breaks there is no anchor: that seems to be the biggest problem.
And if the locker (that should be used at the master point) breaks, there is no anchor, and if the climber is belaying off his/her harness and the belay loop or harness breaks, there is not anchor, and if both pieces blow, there's no anchor. No system can be 100% safe and if you back everything up that could possibly (>3 sigma) break, you'll never get past P1.

That said, I know that AMGA and ACMG guides are not happy with the sliding X - they have a higher duty of care however.
David Appelhans · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 410
Kevin Craig wrote: The old shock-loading fear is BS. Read Long's new book. Testing/data do not support shock loading concerns as long as the climbing rope is part of the loaded system.
Exactly. It is not shock loading if the piece blows and the rope is being used in the system.

Come on all this nitpicking lately on anchors and protection is ridiculous. Want perfect saftey? Stay on the couch. Want redundancy? Wear two harnesses and two ropes. Bring an extra helmet in case your first one gets hit by a rock. I whipped on my umbrellaed smallest cam and a tiny metal stop broke when it tried to stop my plummeting body. Can you believe they won't replace it even though I wasn't using it according to their instructions? This is getting ridiculous.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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