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Are climbers hypocrites?

Original Post
Tradster · · Phoenix, AZ · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 0

Just was thinking about this recently. Many climbers are very strong proponents of the environment, which we'd like to see in good shape.

However, I was pondering about our chosen favorite outdoor pursuit and how it impacts the environment. Curious as to what the Mountain Project community thinks about it.

How many of us drive a nice SUV or pickup? How many are 4X4? What mileage are you sporting on that set of wheels? Compare that to a Prius, or Fiat 500, or some other good mileage vehicle?

Speaking of vehicles, how much mileage are you racking up every year to get to the crags, mountains, whatever? Have you flown to a climbing destination? That consumes plenty of gas.

How many of us bitch about big oil, but have ropes, slings, clothing, packs and other assorted whatnots that come directly from the production of oil? How does this compare to other outdoor pursuits? As a comparison, alpine skiing has to be one of the least environmentally friendly outdoor activities on the radar: ski lifts, clear cut slopes, lodges and condos for them, etc. I'm not really including outdoor pursuits like off-roading or boating as I'm not interested in comparing us to throttle twisters. We know that those activities are much less environmentally friendly. But, what about sky diving, hiking, scuba diving, kayaking, whitewater rafting and those types of activities compared to climbing?

What other activity involves at least frequently, leaving in situ stuff outdoors? Specifically bolts for our sport, and webbing, bail slings, etc.

What percentage of cams, clothes, headlamps and whatnot etc are now produced in China, rather than here in the USA or Europe? When you buy something from a vendor who makes it in China, Vietnam, or some other developing country, have you ever wondered how much pollution is produced so you can get it at a cheaper price cuz its not made in a country with stringent environmental regulations?

How much gear does our sport require compared to other outdoor recreation?

How many climbing areas require bushwacking, and blazing our own trails to various crags?

How many other sports leave shit behind in places like Everest?

Curious what the community on here thinks.

BrianWS · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 790

Short answer: Yes.

Most liberal eco-concerned types rarely go beyond superficial efforts (diet, car choice, carbon offsets, bumper stickers, etc.) and rhetoric to reduce their middle/upper middle class impact on the environment. This is not limited to climbers, but most climbers (over generalization, yes) fit into the same demographic.

Is this worth getting one's undergarment's bunched up over? No.

Live your life and treat others well. If environmental protection is a priority for you, do what you can to reduce personal impact and use your electoral rights to vote in politicians whom you think will implement positive change.

Eric G. · · Saratoga Springs, NY · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 70

What Brian said.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Climbing is definitely a high impact sport. Even at strict trad destinations where permanent anchors are not allowed, the constant walking around at the top of cliffs and slinging of trees kills the trees and leads to erosion. The fact that a large volume of people tend to focus on a relatively small area (compared to backcountry hiking) is also problematic, especially as people leave poop bags, beer cans, and other trash. This is why climbers, as a subsection of mountaineers, have an obligation towards stewardship and minimizing impact.

That said, make no mistake: climbing and other outdoor activities pale in comparison to the impact and degradation caused by resource extraction and housing development. These activities permanently scar and destroy the landscape, not to mention the long-term global effects of climate change. We have a selfish interest in keeping the world's rock formations as they are (so that we can climb on them and tick routes on an Internet forum), which also happens to be better for the environment.

Tradster · · Phoenix, AZ · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 0
BrianWS wrote:Short answer: Yes. Most liberal eco-concerned types rarely go beyond superficial efforts (diet, car choice, carbon offsets, bumper stickers, etc.) and rhetoric to reduce their middle/upper middle class impact on the environment. This is not limited to climbers, but most climbers (over generalization, yes) fit into the same demographic. Is this worth getting one's undergarment's bunched up over? No. Live your life and treat others well. If environmental protection is a priority for you, do what you can to reduce personal impact and use your electoral rights to vote in politicians whom you think will implement positive change.
I am pretty much in agreement with you. Just curious on the consensus view here.
eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525

Yeah we impact the environment quite a bit. We also do so significantly less than a lot of other people.

Tradster · · Phoenix, AZ · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 0

A lot of so-called 'conservative' outdoorsmen are hunters and fishermen(women) and pay licensing fees and various taxes in the millions of dollars to support viable game management programs. I don't think climbers can make that sort of claim.

Also on being a hypocrite, take a look at the Indian Creek campground thread...climbers shitting everywhere and driving over crypto soil isn't too cool, but hey, we are climbers and are oh so special and well whatever. I won't paint with such a broad brush.

Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10

All forms of enjoying nature cost the world something. Odds are no matter your sport, you burn gasoline to get to your favorite park or forest or preserve or body of water.

I think of it in terms of evangelism. Nature would probably prefer if we never visited any of the parks. The ultimate nature lover would never set foot in nature, to better preserve it. But outdoor recreation is probably the best way to get people to care.

Tradster · · Phoenix, AZ · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 0
caughtinside wrote:It is easy to nitpick each individual choice, and painting climbers with a broad brush doesn't work (in my opinion). More and more climbers reflect society as a whole. There is something to what you say about vehicle choice and flights, etc. But if you look around at the rampant consumerism, twice weekly business travel, etc, it's a fraction of how some people choose to live. Personally, I find it easy to reduce my personal impact in some respects (water usage in CA, gas) but other things I would find hard to give up (like the air travel).
We definitely are consumer freaks in this country. We keep our thermostat down to 65 in winter and 82 or so in summer here in Phoenix, which most folks think is a bit extreme, but it saves energy. I know people who run their AC at 75 degrees in summer...can't imagine what that costs. We try and recycle and honestly I believe we recycle at least 75% of our garbage (excepting our shit, of course). I can't say the same for my neighbors because I see what they dump in the trash versus what should go in the recycle bin. We went to xeriscaping, however we do have a pool which sucks up the water usage, so maybe that's a wash since we don't have a lawn and only desert plants. I try to limit showers to five minutes, but I am still a consumer. We keep our vehicles a long time (Mazda 24 years old, Taco is 10) so we don't impact the environment via always buying some new damn vehicle every 5 years or so. But, we still consume plenty.
Insert name · · Harts Location · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 46

Driving a prius, fiat, or any "nice" vehicle made within the last 5 or so years is a large factor. that old truck getting 19mpg is getting scrapped and a giant cargo ship ships your new "green vehicle"

consumerism is the largest fault no matter what you do in life.

Everyone will complain about big oil but how many people sell a used jacket on here for "newer and better".

John Barritt · · The 405 · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 1,083

Although my Diesel 3/4 ton dodge 4WD does average 20mpg I gave up on the whole smaller "carbon footprint" thing years ago and went the other way. I figure if I make my carbon footprint as big as possible when I die the Earth will go "Ahhhhhhhhh" JB

Tradster · · Phoenix, AZ · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 0
Nivel Egres wrote: This is so-called 'bullshit'. The license fees are just another way for the state/county to pad their budget, a minor portion (if any) of that goes anywhere close to conservation. I have seen the impact of hunters first-hand on my own property in Upstate NY - beer cans and wrappers left all of the place, ammo casings, horrible ATV tracks all over the place. Some ass built a perch on a tree, the tree eventually broke. I don't seem to be getting a cut of the "millions of dollars" for dealing with it, so now there are "no hunting" signs. If we climbers act the same way, we will see "no climbing" signs at some point. I am sure there are true friends of the environment among hunters, but most of the ones I've met were not. Nothing personal, just the honest truth. The local impact of an average climber (e.g. cliff erosion or boulder landings) would probably be well offset by the daily "superficial efforts" mentioned above. It would be true of hunters or hikers too. If you are mostly vegetarian (or eat only your own kill), drive a Honda Fit and try to wear your clothing until it it's threadbare, you're doing pretty well.
I can sympathize there as I've frog marched a hunter off of our northern NY property when he wouldn't leave when I asked him. He said "Been hunting here 20 years, so fuck off." I spent 45 minutes sneaking up on him with a HK91 rifle and got behind him and told him if he turned around with the shotgun in his hand that I'd flat out kill him. He dropped the weapon and I marched his sorry ass off to where a state police guy came and arrested him. I told him to tell all his asshole friends to stay the fuck out as the land is posted and we had lots of kids playing in our 350 acres of woods from a mobile home park we owned on the property. It cost the shithead $1500 or so and I laughed at him as the state cop had him in his squad car.

My experience is there are more asshole hunters back east than out west. Too many urban douchebags who aren't really hunters back east. Shooters could do more to police up their crap...that I agree with. Here in AZ most of the hunting license fees must go to game management because the department managing game in AZ gets no money from the state general fund, but hey, your are New York and I'm in AZ. NYC sucks up most of your state tax dollars and was one reason I left NY, along with douchebags who trespassed on our property. It is a difference in approach. Plus, out here in AZ I have more freedom to own most any weapon I want without some local LEO denying me a carry permit or handgun permit. You won't get a 'cut' of those game fees because your aren't managing any wildlife.

Sorry you have to put up with that shit.
G Man · · Tahoe · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 81
PosiDave wrote:Driving a prius, fiat, or any "nice" vehicle made within the last 5 or so years is a large factor. that old truck getting 19mpg is getting scrapped and a giant cargo ship ships your new "green vehicle" consumerism is the largest fault no matter what you do in life. Everyone will complain about big oil but how many people sell a used jacket on here for "newer and better".
This is extremely accurate. It's way better for the environment to keep an old car running than it is to buy a new one, no matter how good of gas mileage it gets.
Kevin Piarulli · · Redmond, OR · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 1,678
Patrick Shyvers wrote:outdoor recreation is probably the best way to get people to care.
This.

Also, what's one of the worst things we can do for the environment? Create more humans to continue to fuck it up. I would venture that the average climber has significantly fewer offspring than the general population and thus less impact.
Tradster · · Phoenix, AZ · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 0
Kevin MP wrote: This. Also, what's one of the worst things we can do for the environment? Create more humans to continue to fuck it up. I would venture that the average climber has significantly fewer offspring than the general population and thus less impact.
+1

We don't have kids and we've been hitched 33 years. Sometimes I think I should be exempt from taxes because we don't have any offspring to pollute the air or water, go to a public school, drive a car, consume endlessly until death, need governmental assistance or end up in jail.

There seem to be enough humans now as the world is certainly a screwed up place.

Humans really are the worst thing to ever happen to the world, however, my survival instincts won't permit me to eat a lead sandwich. ;^)
BrianWS · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 790
Nivel Egres wrote: Yeah, while most conservative "outdoorsmen" are not eco-concerned at all and don't even do any of the above. All of these things (except for the bumper stickers, of course) add up to meaningful change in impact, actually.
Good for you if you put effort towards reducing environmental impact and putting your money where your mouth is. Not trying to start a liberal vs conservative conversation here, just pointing out the casual armchair environmentalism that is all too common in cities.

Production of hybrids and electrics cause a very different set of environmental impacts, none of which are visible to the end consumer. Rare earth mineral mining is extremely impactful, just not in your visible backyard. Take a tour around China and see the impact that green technology production has had on their environment and health.

Same goes for the steel and silicon required for turbines and solar panels. It all has an impact, some of which is more immediately harmful to the environment and human health.

And I know plenty of "conservative" outdoorsmen who have put lots of time and money into conservation and preservation of the wilderness.
Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5

I have not reproduced, and those non-existent children won't either, saving the impact of generations of potential descendants. So I figure that more than offsets any environmental impact I could possibly have in my entire lifetime.

Pnelson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 635

This is a tired topic. The best thing we could all do for the environment (short of suicide and then composting) would be to live in tightly packed, efficient, recycling cities, and never venture beyond their boundaries. But most of us here, to some degree, has decided that this is not a lifestyle we want. So we make compromises and do as best we can to lower our impact based on what we know we can do.

It's not too helpful, every time a climber mentions something we can all do to lower our impacts, for some Trump-voting, global warming denying, suburban-sprawl living, non-recycling, privatize-federal-lands-supporting, littering piece of shit to yell "YER ROPE IZ MADE OF OLE!"

slim · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,103
Em Cos wrote:I have not reproduced, and those non-existent children won't either, saving the impact of generations of potential descendants. So I figure that more than offsets any environmental impact I could possibly have in my entire lifetime.
ha ha, that's my motto also. i always find it pretty funny when people with kids lecture me about the environment/etc.
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125

It's a tired topic indeed.

Tradster wrote: We don't have kids and we've been hitched 33 years.
Em Cos wrote:I have not reproduced, and those non-existent children won't either
slim wrote: ha ha, that's my motto also.
If you don't share the responsibility of child rearing and didn't dedicate part of your life to achieving singularity, just remember, when you get to be old & decrepit, you can either

1) do yourself a solid
or
2) become the definition hypocrisy

Edited to add slim just because...lol
Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5

...what?

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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